Means Test when married, but filing individually

[squeeze]

and one more thing. with all respect, your suspicions and opinions are based on very little data. 90% of my posts have been questions. Yes I'm glad you're not my trustee, lest I be judged guilty until proven innocent and receive no justice.

[shabam]

We are all here to help. However, every now and then, someone comes along and asks questions which arouse suspicion. In other words, no one wants to waste time helping anyone pulling a scam.

[shabam]

and one more thing. with all respect, your suspicions and opinions are based on very little data. 90% of my posts have been questions. I'm glad you're not my trustee as well, lest I be judged guilty until proven innocent and receive no justice.

This is BK. It is definitely guilty until proven innocent.

[rrj]

Your household income is the figure the trustee is interested in. Your income plus whatever income the spouse contributes to household expenses.

If your spouse has income from rental property and contributes all or part of that income to household expenses, then the part contributed counts on the means test.

This is one area where USTs try to bully people. They take the position that ALL the spouse's income is contributed to household expenses. If that is not in fact the case, your attorney needs to be ready to call their bluff. The UST has the burden of proof here. If your spouse doesn't contribute what the UST says he/she does, make them PROVE it.

My husband is not filing, this mess is all my fault, I robbed peter to pay paul and tried to hide it from him for almost 6 months

I just listed all my husband income on my papers, but were still way under the means test, with all of his income

[squeeze]

this term "household income" seems remarkably vague for a BK rule.

So I looked it up. Here's what you can find:

the total income of all members of a household
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/household_income

nope. This isn't what we're talking about.

The income of the householder and all other individuals 15 years old and over in the household, whether they are related to the householder or not.
ms.marketmaker.uiuc.edu/glossary.php

nope. This isn't what we're talking about.

Household income is a measure commonly used by the United States government and private institutions. That measure counts all the income of all residents over the age of 18 in each household, including not only all wages and salaries, but such items as unemployment insurance, disability payments, child support payments, regular rental receipts, as well as any personal business, investment, or other kinds of income received routinely.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Househo..._United_States

yup. This sounds more like it. But then by definition household income is ALL income flowing into the lives of everyone living in the house, from any source.

This is one area where USTs try to bully people. They take the position that ALL the spouse's income is contributed to household expenses.

According to the above definition, the UST's aren't bullying;they take the position that ALL the spouse's income is contributed to household expenses because well, this is CORRECT, by DEFINITION.

either I'm right, or someone needs to give us a better definition of household income than the one offered up on wikipedia. . .

[MSbklawyer]

The UST backed down; my wife wrote a letter stating that she didn't file bankruptcy, and nor had she been involved with any of my poor choices; so she surely wasn't going to help pay for them now. My attorney essentially dared the UST to drag my non-filing wife in for a hearing and propose to force her to help pay off my debts, while her own financial situation was a bit precarious.

Glad to hear you had a good lawyer willing to call their bluff.

[MSbklawyer]

According to the above definition, the UST's aren't bullying;they take the position that ALL the spouse's income is contributed to household expenses because well, this is CORRECT, by DEFINITION.

either I'm right, or someone needs to give us a better definition of household income than the one offered up on wikipedia. . .

But the code specifically allows you to exclude household income that is not actually contributed to household expenses. That's where some USTs get unreasonable, IMHO. They don't want to accept that one spouse may be spending his/her money for gambling or alcohol or on the grand-kids.

[squeeze]

But the code specifically allows you to exclude household income that is not actually contributed to household expenses.

Can you please post a copy of the actual language in the code?

If what you're saying is true, then the household income is not the relevant question, rather it's the household expenses.

And these would be (I'm guessing here)...

rent (or mortgage)
utilities
food (eaten at home)
clothes
phone
cable
car
gas
gifts

...

and these would not be (I'm guessing here)...

investments
student loans


will a lawyer in the house please give us an official list of the expenses that are defined as household expenses?

Sounds like everyone who is married should ask their spouse to create separate bank accounts - one for household expenses, and one for non-household expenses.

[justbroke]

But the code specifically allows you to exclude household income that is not actually contributed to household expenses.

Can you please post a copy of the actual language in the code?

It's in 11 USC 707(b)(2) aka the Means Test. It incorporates the definition of "current monthly income" which comes from 11 USC 101(10A)(B)...

11 USC 101(10A)(B)... includes any amount paid by any entity other than the debtor (or in a joint case the debtor and the debtor’s spouse), on a regular basis for the household expenses of the debtor or the debtor’s dependents (and in a joint case the debtor’s spouse if not otherwise a dependent), but excludes benefits received...

The key is in the language that it's any amount paid by any entity. An entity can be a person. The rest of what MSbklawyer is construed from the underlined portion above... that any amount received... for the household expenses... are current monthly income.

[squeeze]

Is there a website that publishes the code?

[MSbklawyer]

Here's an excerpt from a court opinion on the subject:

In Re Baldino

[justbroke]

Is there a website that publishes the code?

See my post above and see MSbklawyer's post above.

I get my code from here... http://doney.net/bkcode/11usc.htm

[squeeze]

Here's the text of the code:

The term "current monthly income"--

(A) means the average monthly income from all sources that the debtor receives (or in a joint case the debtor and the debtor's spouse receive) without regard to whether such income is taxable income, derived during the 6-month period ending on--

(i) the last day of the calendar month immediately preceding the date of the commencement of the case if the debtor files the schedule of current income required by section 521(a)(1)(B)(ii); or

(ii) the date on which current income is determined by the court for purposes of this title if the debtor does not file the schedule of current income required by section 521(a)(1)(B)(ii); and

(B) includes any amount paid by any entity other than the debtor (or in a joint case the debtor and the debtor's spouse), on a regular basis for the household expenses of the debtor or the debtor's dependents (and in a joint case the debtor's spouse if not otherwise a dependent), but excludes benefits received under the Social Security Act, payments to victims of war crimes or crimes against humanity on account of their status as victims of such crimes, and payments to victims of international terrorism (as defined in section 2331 of title 18) or domestic terrorism (as defined in section 2331 of title 18) on account of their status as victims of such terrorism.

[OhioFiler]

Here's the text of the code:

The term "current monthly income"--

(A) means the average monthly income from all sources that the debtor receives (or in a joint case the debtor and the debtor's spouse receive) without regard to whether such income is taxable income, derived during the 6-month period ending on--

(i) the last day of the calendar month immediately preceding the date of the commencement of the case if the debtor files the schedule of current income required by section 521(a)(1)(B)(ii); or

(ii) the date on which current income is determined by the court for purposes of this title if the debtor does not file the schedule of current income required by section 521(a)(1)(B)(ii); and

(B) includes any amount paid by any entity other than the debtor (or in a joint case the debtor and the debtor's spouse), on a regular basis for the household expenses of the debtor or the debtor's dependents (and in a joint case the debtor's spouse if not otherwise a dependent), but excludes benefits received under the Social Security Act, payments to victims of war crimes or crimes against humanity on account of their status as victims of such crimes, and payments to victims of international terrorism (as defined in section 2331 of title 18) or domestic terrorism (as defined in section 2331 of title 18) on account of their status as victims of such terrorism.

I doublechecked the definitions in the code, and "household expenses of the debtor" has not been defined.

The Means Test clearly indicates what household expenses are.

[justbroke]

I doublechecked the definitions in the code, and "household expenses of the debtor" has not been defined.

When it's not defined, they use the common definition of the word. So "household expense" includes all expenses necessary to maintain a household. It is quite common to not define every single word in the law.

The key in this instances, is the 11 USC 101(10A)(B) does define what income includes, and that is everything contributed (regardless of source) to the household expenses.

I think it would certainly helps and you could do that for accounting purposes, but that doesn't necessarily means your accounting it flawless. You will still need to just show to what extent the debtor receives income from others for the maintenance of the household.