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**Faust** · 11-30-2009, 08:18 PM

What is your family size? I missed that.

**Meatstick** · 11-30-2009, 08:21 PM

Family Size of 5.

Meatstick

**Meatstick** · 12-01-2009, 11:09 AM

I take it everything looks normal then ?

Meatstick

**bkresearch** · 12-01-2009, 12:57 PM

Why do you have such large tax refunds?

You might consider indicating that you are keeping the house and doing a ride-thru. That way I think you can put the full mortgage payment on the schedule. Then you can change your mind and indicate that you intend to surrender it after the 341 or whenever. Someone else might have a better idea how that works....

**Meatstick** · 12-01-2009, 05:42 PM

Thanks for the reply. We have elevated returns caused in part by withholding, having 2 kids and wife in college and our son who has a heart transplant.

Thanks again for the reply it is appreciated.

Meatstick

**bkresearch** · 12-01-2009, 06:16 PM

Maybe you can start a new thread and ask the question about whether to put the $1200 standard rent for Arizona or the $1656 you pay for your mortgage. The extra $456 for the mortgage would get you even further negative on Schedule J line 20 c, which should help you get to Chapter 7 versus 13, right? You'd be -$2266 with your mortgage instead of the rent number.

I'm no expert at this LOL but I'm pretty sure I've read others have done that. Might be worth asking a lawyer about.

**Meatstick** · 12-01-2009, 06:31 PM

Thanks again for your reply. We did consult an attorney during our initial consultation but we have so many question since that meeting its making our heads spin !

We will consult with him again after the holidays and present all of our paperwork and then based on what he says will make the decision to hire him. We have the Hyatt Legal Plan so consulting any attorney multiple times doesn't cost us $$$.

Reading these forums and replies to questions asked has allowed us to make as much of an educated decision as possible.

thanks again !

Meatstick

**Meatstick** · 12-07-2009, 04:08 PM

Updated after further analysis.

Originally posted by Meatstick View Post

Ok the anxiety is killing me so here goes:

6 months Means Test Income $45,537 Arizona Median $38,176
Monthly Income $7589.50
Allowed Deductions $8004.97
DMI = $-415.47

Schedule I Line 1 $2863.20 Bi-Weekly Gross
Line 5 $1267.71 Bi-Weekly Payroll Deductions
Line 6 $3456.90 Net monthly Income

Schedule J Line 1 $1200 Housing
Line 2 $475 Utilities
Line 4 $500 Food
Line 5 $100 Clothing
Line 6 $100 Laundry
Line 7 $150 Med/Dental
Line 8 $450 Transportation Costs
Line 9 $50 Entertainment
Line 10 $60 Charity
Line 11 $215 Auto Insurance
Line 17 $1210 Other

aycare,HairCuts,SchoolLunches Student Loans,Cellphones,Internet,SatelitteTV
Line 18 $4510 Monthly Expenses

Line 20a $3456.90 Monthly Income from Line 16 Sch I
Line 20b $4510.00 Monthly Expenses from Line 18 SCH J
Line 20c $-1053.10 Monthly Net Income

The figures above are what "I" come up with after completing Forms 22,I and J. There is no presumption of abuse.

We are giving up our house so on Line 1 Schedule J we put the allowed amount of $1200 for our Distict of Arizona. Would that be correct or would I put in $0. We are making $1656 mortgage payments right now and are current. As it looks we won't have the DMI to re-affirm my wife's car so it goes also.

From our Tax Returns:
2006 $73227 Adjusted Gross $13015 Withheld $2634 Liability $10381 refund
2007 $102,040 Adjusted Gross $19021 Withheld $7716 Liability $11,305 refund
2008 $136,474 Adjusted Gross $21701 Withheld $16344Liability $5357 refund
Estimates for 2009
2009 $132,000 Adjusted Gross $20000 Withheld $15000Liability $5000 refund

I know our incomes are way above but my wife is not working now and I have stopped working my 2nd job. By the time we file it will be almost 5 full months with "0" OT. Also, by this time next year our income will be back down to 2006 levels which is right at the median.

Can anyone comment as to what I may have missed or need to take into account ? Does everything look inline for forms I & J as I didn't fudge any numbers. We plan to file in March and I am just a bit nervous that the trustee will pop a blood vessel when he sees our income, even though we will be back down to median levels in no time.

We did consult a lawyer who said Ch.13 just looking at our incomes but after briefly touching the Means test said we would probably be good for a Ch.7

Just looking for thoughts and opinions. Any and all would be greatly appreciated.

Meatstick

1st Home $228k balance on 2005 home worth $100k. $1656 per month 20 years left.
2nd Home $43k balance on 2002 Mobile Home worth $30k. $630 per month 13 years left.
2005 Honda Accord 24 payments left at $479. (Wifes car)
2001 Ford Focus Salvaged Title. (No KBB for Salvaged Vehicles)(Son for uses for college)(Paid For)
1999 Chevy Z-71 200K miles worth maybe $5k. (Paid for)(My Work vehicle)
About $75k in unsecured CC debt.

**HHM** · 12-07-2009, 04:58 PM

First, you will need to nix student loan payments, not allowed to be taken on the means test (unless they are for your spouse and she is not filing, AND has her own income).

In any event, you have special circumstances, you have a "recent" decrease in income, but that income still reflects on the means test. This issue is actually on a appeal to the supreme court (In Re Lanning...I posted in the news section on this). Bottom line, YOU should be fine with a chapter 7.

And Really, the median income for a household of 5 in AZ is only $38K, that seems low.

**justbroke** · 12-07-2009, 05:04 PM

That 3rd vehicle (the salvage one), might give you some issues, because it must have "some" value, but I'm not worried about that.

Depending on how a mobile home is classified in your State, it might be fourth vehicle. (For example, is it fixed to a location, etc, etc)

I think you can up the food if you really have 5 people in your household! That should run $800+ and probably closer to $900 or more.

The transportation costs of $450 will be questioned!

Since you're giving up your home, you would use the IRS allowance for Schedule J, so that was smart.

(Some USTs will actually pounce on the fact that you're surrendering the home. They won't question the "means test", because they can't by precedence (but some try). They'll attack the totality of circumstances because you are surrendering. However, this is different across Districts, so you might get away with including the actual mortgage payment. Your attorney will let you know.)

Estimates for 2009
2009 $132,000 Adjusted Gross $20000 Withheld $15000Liability $5000 refund

Your income is bothering me! It looks like you're making $11K a month, but you show only $7.6K on the Schedule I??? Where's the other income coming from? Why isn't it accounted on Schedule I? Is it some sort of year end bonus? I don't understand the net affect of your spouse no longer working, yet your income going up?

**Meatstick** · 12-07-2009, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by HHM View Post

First, you will need to nix student loan payments, not allowed to be taken on the means test (unless they are for your spouse and she is not filing, AND has her own income).

In any event, you have special circumstances, you have a "recent" decrease in income, but that income still reflects on the means test. This issue is actually on a appeal to the supreme court (In Re Lanning...I posted in the news section on this). Bottom line, YOU should be fine with a chapter 7.

And Really, the median income for a household of 5 in AZ is only $38K, that seems low.

Thanks for the reply. I should have stated that the 6 months median income for AZ is $38k. The SL payments are only accounted for on Schedule J.

I really appreciate the input.

Meatstick

**HHM** · 12-07-2009, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by Meatstick View Post

Thanks for the reply. I should have stated that the 6 months median income for AZ is $38k. The SL payments are only accounted for on Schedule J.

I really appreciate the input.

Meatstick

Student loan payments are not accountable on Schedule J either, you don't get to claim them, AT ALL, in a chapter 7.

Let me make sure I understand you, you are saying the 6 month number is $38,000, but the Annual number then is $76,000 per year. Correct?

**Meatstick** · 12-07-2009, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by justbroke View Post

That 3rd vehicle (the salvage one), might give you some issues, because it must have "some" value, but I'm not worried about that.

Depending on how a mobile home is classified in your State, it might be fourth vehicle. (For example, is it fixed to a location, etc, etc)

I should have stated that we are also giving up the mobile home.

I think you can up the food if you really have 5 people in your household! That should run $800+ and probably closer to $900 or more.

I do have 5 in our household so a higher Food allowance would work.

The transportation costs of $450 will be questioned!

I will be able to explain/prove the transportation costs. We spend about $100 per week just on fuel. My wife drives 80 miles round trip to college 4 days per week, I drive 70 miles round trip to work 4 days per week and son drives 40 miles roundtrip 4 days perweek to college.

Since you're giving up your home, you would use the IRS allowance for Schedule J, so that was smart.

(Some USTs will actually pounce on the fact that you're surrendering the home. They won't question the "means test", because they can't by precedence (but some try). They'll attack the totality of circumstances because you are surrendering. However, this is different across Districts, so you might get away with including the actual mortgage payment. Your attorney will let you know.)

Thanks for that bit of information

Your income is bothering me! It looks like you're making $11K a month, but you show only $7.6K on the Schedule I??? Where's the other income coming from? Why isn't it accounted on Schedule I? Is it some sort of year end bonus? I don't understand the net affect of your spouse no longer working, yet your income going up?

My wife was working until July of this year and would have made roughly $27k for a full year. My fulltime position I made a huge killing, almost $60k by June due to emergency outage at work where I was farmed out working 7/12's for 4 months straight. Since that outage I have had only about 30 hours OT and no OT since September. I also worked a 2nd job where I contract myself out to various power plants that made me an additional $18-$20k per year. On the advice of the lawyer we consulted I stopped working that 2nd job. He said we looked like a 13 but said a 7 was possible but the 2nd job had to go and it still wasnt a lock. I normally average 70 to 100 hrs of OT. I work in power generation and right now I am even worried about possible layoffs. With that said, without working the 2nd job and my wife no longer working I will make roughly $75k-$80k unless there is some kind of emergency outage. I actually gross $2863 every 2 weeks based on 80 straight time hours.

I want to thank you for taking the time to critic my posts in this thread. I have read until my eyes have bled and its great to get the feedback. If I didnt make my self clear in this response please advise. We consulted 2 lawyers with basically the same rough draft outlook and will meet with both again following the holidays before we decide who to go with.

Thanks again !

Meatstick

**Meatstick** · 12-07-2009, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by HHM View Post

Student loan payments are not accountable on Schedule J either, you don't get to claim them, AT ALL, in a chapter 7.

Let me make sure I understand you, you are saying the 6 month number is $38,000, but the Annual number then is $76,000 per year. Correct?

I will remove the SL all together. Yes that would be correct $76,352 is the median income for a full year in Arizona.

Thanks again!

Meatstick

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