Why we face a personal economic disaster

[momisery]

I would have to say in respond to late hours for stores that it does not really cost much more. In fact years ago I was an auditor and one of the stores that fronted my companies goods was Dillards. Their manager told me that the store which was in a mall had to pay mall rent, and utilties even when they are closed. Operating with a skelton crew for longer hours costs little in retail to stay open later. so the overhead is there even if your closed, but labor is so cheap now days that profits will still soar when they simply bring in a few people and keep the doors open. Sad, but true. I agree, in the past familes were home after 6 and on Sundays and mom usually if she worked did so in retail for extra money. Today, moms work because they have too. Now if that is because we WANT more, I would have to say yes, but that is AMERICAN. Our great grandparents had more than their parents did. Our parents had more than their parents, that is the goal of every parent is for their child to have a better life and more. But no where in that goal do I see they want their child to work longer hours and both spouses work and they can buy more Chinese goods ... lol

[momisery]

I think the dropping of wages and the extension of credit got us here. We buy things over longer periods of time all the time. Recently a home went up to 40 years.. geesh.

[CCsAreEvil]

Really nice thread.

I feel ever since 2000, my wages have been stagnant, and now has decreased in dollar value, too. Call me a pessimist but I don't see my wages going up anymore... they are stuck. I think we have a big issue with the global economy. The 3rd world countries have low wages.. and relatively, the US has high wages. US wages are converging downward to meet the 3rd world countries wages (their wages are going up I suppose).

After BK, I'm so glad we have no more debt to deal with. It seems to be a rough "fresh start", but I will now just be on a cash system and save whenever possible. Credit really is evil.. but like someone said, it has been the norm over the past few decades.

I probably won't feel "secure" economically for years to come. I just don't think any job is "safe" anymore.. well at lesat for the middle and lower classes.

[momisery]

I think a lot of people fear that, jobs are not safe. We are worried about losing our purchasing power as well as losing our jobs which will include our healthcare. Incomes have gone down per the dept of labor so your not just THINKING... you are KNOWING.. If anyone doubts that remember your childhood... in 1968 I moved in with a friend and we shared an apt spliting the rent and utilities. We bought our own food, clothers, paid for our part time community college classes, paid our car payments mine was a 1968 Javlin AMC 6 cyl brand new... and I paid my own insurance and I saved too.. all of this on min. wage... I bougth clothes went to concerts and never felt broke.. I smoked 2 packs a day back then and drank a little bit. I only smoked until I was 25 and decided who I wanted to be did not include cigarettes. Today, a 18 year old kid on min wage could not afford one half of that stuff. Union wages seemed to hold their own in an economy that was dying, but the rest of us died on the vine as unions slipped away. While I have never been a huge union supporter, looking back I have to ask why did the teachers spend all those years in my little factory union town in the midwest of talking bad about the unions, and the police worked so hard to contact crowds in a walk out.. then they simply joined unions.. now nurses are forming unions, and docs are considering it. Strength in numbers maybe? maybe we need unions back, but good unions, that represent the workers since we don't have a government that does and have not for about 30 years now.

[BobMango]

1. Technology allows movement of goods where they can be made cheaper and shipped over here. That's why jobs are in China where before they were in Mexico and before that they were in the USA. Nobody "sent jobs" overseas. We all allowed this to happen because we want cheap stuff.

I agree with most of this except the last line. Do you really think that manufacturers moved their operations overseas just because we wanted cheaper goods? Yes there was some of that because they couldn't compete against manufacturers paying slave wages, but I guarantee you that a majority of them would have moved operations anyway if they thought they could save a buck.

It's largely tax and regulation issues that created the environment allowing this to happen. I'm not a protectionist, but I do view government's role to maintain a level playing field.

[justbroke]

It's largely tax and regulation issues that created the environment allowing this to happen. I'm not a protectionist, but I do view government's role to maintain a level playing field.

It has always been about taxes. Many Industries enjoy tax breaks from the Federal Government. One of the least public is probably the Rural Utility Services (Rural Electrify America) subsidies.

If the tax breaks given to the various industries (or the imposed regulations) are not enough to keep the business profitable, then they look elsewhere. Hence the move offshore.

The problem is that the Government, due to lobbying efforts and the general "greed" within politics, is unable to fairly maintain the playing field within the borders of our own country! To top that off, if you give too many subsidies to business and/or relax regulations... you get revolt by the electorate who will vote you out (as a Congresscritter). So... what do you do? Nothing.

It's easy to blame prior Administrations for subsidies and relaxation of regulations, but it did increase productivity, the GDP and wealth in America. However, it did so at a cost... like losing the manufacturing base.

[momisery]

So, we can lower our taxes, and lose our services? Does that work? Should we decide to look like Thailand or China so that we can compete? The best course would be for us to be competing with other nations that are like us, not communistic or slave labor nations. Unless, or course our DREAM is to be like them? It is all about profits and pie. When you have a piece of pie for mom and dad (simple terms), they each have one half of a pie. Once the kids are born, they have to share it, then the grandchildren come along and soon you need to start cutting into someone else pie so you can have enough to be satisfied. That is what has happened. Everyone wanted to get richer at the top, bottom and middle of the production line that makes, ships, and sells goods to us. They needed more cash infused to grow larger or carry more inventory, so they now have stocks and people invest in them again you slip the pie smaller and smaller. In the end, we the workers and consumers are taking the greatest risk, while they think they are. We are risking our lives that we will get a check next week, or our bonus without it we will lose our homes or car.. without their check the investors will lose their power but they will continue eating and invest in another country.

[liboton21]

The repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act in 1999......

Greed is pumping in the veins of America. It is running through the citizens, it lives in corporate America, greed is entrenched in Washington DC, on both sides of the isle. Greed is as American as hot dogs, apple pies, and baseball. Greed is advertised on TV, radio and taught at schools. Greed is destroying America. Americans you’re greedy. Eaches vs the masses. You buy houses you can’t afford on loans you don’t understand. The pizza sign on top or you luxury SUV hollers, “I’m living above my means”. When that SUV is hit you’re calling the local attorney you saw on TV to get the money your entitled. “I’m getting mine”. YOU my friend are entitled. EACHES. If two out of one hundred speak out against something or how it offends them, then that is how it is. EACHES. The majority does not rule, it is the vocal minority. Forget teaching your kid value and respect, sincerity and honesty, they will learn it on the TV or the radio. But they better dam sure not learn it in school. EACHES.

The slow, evolutionary change in our educational system has succeeded. To the individual, the left wing liberal- congratulations you win. Do you like what you see? To America- Americans better luck next time.

This is just an observation from an American who is sick and tired of the rhetorical crap we are being subjected to. Stop. Stop and listen to Americans, not eaches.

[TooMuchCredit]

Why can't we be a little more protectionist?

Why can't we implement a VAT like other countries have? Goods leaving another country bound here get their country's VAT refunded. We don't add a VAT to them when entering this country. However our goods bound for overseas get taxed here and then get the importing countries VAT tacked on making our goods essentially double taxed.

Why can't we add a Standard of Living tariff and an Environmental tariff? I.E. If someone in a 3rd world country will work for $2 a day vs. $15/hr here, a company is going to offshore the job to save money at the cost of domestic workers. We can't ask people here to work for $2 a day and maintain our standard of living. Why not impose a tariff that brings that product inline with REASONABLE labor costs here so we can employ people here? And companies that move operations to other countries to get around environmental regulations, add a tariff to that too or don't allow their product to be sold here. Dumping poisons into the air/water overseas will eventually come to bite us all so anyone sending goods here should adhear to the same rules had they manufactured the item here. Those 2 tariffs will help put products made here and overseas on a level playing field so they compete on QUALITY more so than price.

I think for national security reasons, except for very small operations, atleast 25% of production must remain in the U.S. Otherwise, the country(ies) that make all our stuff can hold us hostage to their demands.

The tariffs would lead to higher prices for goods, but what is produced would employ people at home.

The money from these tariffs should not be counted on in any general budget either as when imports decrease, so would the amount of the tariffs. Anything collected should be dedicated to paying off our external debt and supplemental funding for things like developing domestic energy sources or saved for a rainy day.

[momisery]

I agree.. we must have mfg here at home. During WWII we were able to covert our sewing machine factories and appliance factories over to Ammo factories and aircraft. What would we do today, place and order with China?? She could be our next problem for all we know.

[DeadManCrawling]

Why can't we be a little more protectionist?

Why can't we add a Standard of Living tariff and an Environmental tariff? I.E. Those 2 tariffs will help put products made here and overseas on a level playing field so they compete on QUALITY more so than price.


The money from these tariffs should not be counted on in any general budget either as when imports decrease, so would the amount of the tariffs. Anything collected should be dedicated to paying off our external debt and supplemental funding for things like developing domestic energy sources or saved for a rainy day.

These are EXCELLENT points. If not outright protectionist, there MUST be some way to level the playing field and make us more comptetitive.

We will never win against slave labor, and that shouldn't be our goal. But, we might be able to encourage other countries to RAISE wages-and standard of living.

We are the biggest consumer society in the world. Surely we have some leverage?

Just a matter of balance, I think. I hope we find it.

[shabam]

this one probably less common: people with lawyers getting huge judgments against you when you owe nothing.

Our legal system is definitely ludicrous. When people frivolously sue either ourselves, companies, and counties, we all end up paying for it one way or another. We are probably the only country where you can sue for basically anything and still get an unrealistic multi-million dollar payout.

Trip in Europe and you are paid the actual cost of treatment or loss. Trip here and you automatically qualify for $10 million for the mental anguish caused by the graze on your knee.

[shabam]

Why can't we be a little more protectionist?

Why can't we implement a VAT like other countries have? Goods leaving another country bound here get their country's VAT refunded. We don't add a VAT to them when entering this country. However our goods bound for overseas get taxed here and then get the importing countries VAT tacked on making our goods essentially double taxed.

Protectionism caused the great depression. Since we also trade in the world, it would also hurt us. I do agree that we do need changes since it's almost impossible to compete with places like China, where the federal government runs everything.

What I do like is the VAT. Since we no longer produce even a fraction of the things we purchase, we should tax all goods and services. Having people purchase hundreds of billions of dollars worth of foreign made items does nothing for our economy and even lead a number of us here.

[shabam]

I agree.. we must have mfg here at home. During WWII we were able to covert our sewing machine factories and appliance factories over to Ammo factories and aircraft. What would we do today, place and order with China?? She could be our next problem for all we know.

I hope not. China is not some Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Japan or Germany we can push around. We are talking about 1.34 Billion people here. A country that now owns 1.2 trillion US dollars.

[shabam]

The repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act in 1999......

Greed is pumping in the veins of America. It is running through the citizens, it lives in corporate America, greed is entrenched in Washington DC, on both sides of the isle. Greed is as American as hot dogs, apple pies, and baseball. Greed is advertised on TV, radio and taught at schools. Greed is destroying America. Americans you’re greedy. Eaches vs the masses. You buy houses you can’t afford on loans you don’t understand. The pizza sign on top or you luxury SUV hollers, “I’m living above my means”. When that SUV is hit you’re calling the local attorney you saw on TV to get the money your entitled. “I’m getting mine”. YOU my friend are entitled. EACHES. If two out of one hundred speak out against something or how it offends them, then that is how it is. EACHES. The majority does not rule, it is the vocal minority. Forget teaching your kid value and respect, sincerity and honesty, they will learn it on the TV or the radio. But they better dam sure not learn it in school. EACHES.

The slow, evolutionary change in our educational system has succeeded. To the individual, the left wing liberal- congratulations you win. Do you like what you see? To America- Americans better luck next time.

This is just an observation from an American who is sick and tired of the rhetorical crap we are being subjected to. Stop. Stop and listen to Americans, not eaches.

I agree with you on most point excluding the one where you blame the left. While I agree with you on that point too, I have to also say, going through this mess has opened my eyes. The right has for too long allowed corporations, an entity with negligible protection in our constitution, to get away with everything short of treason. All in the name of a profit and stock price.