Now in 60 day club, but creditors trying to assert fraud ?

[shabam]

Maybe you just worded it wrong.

As stated by others, we have had enough questionable characters coming through here. As a result, when comments are questionable or in the grey area, it's only natural to ask what is going on.

I am not saying this applies to you but personally, I do not like to assist anyone who is obviously trying to scam.

[OhioFiler]

This situation was discussed a few weeks ago. The OP took multiple deposits from multiple future roommates then decided not to allow any of them to become roommates but started the search for roommates anew.

I'm not sure what bellee's intentions were but I can see why these roommates may have "conspired" and contacted the police. I can certainly see why the police would pursue an investigation. Had Bernie Madoff filed bankruptcy I doubt the court would have offered him protection from his clients. You can't take money from people under false pretense and look for the courts to protect you when it is the other party who was aggrieved.

[OhioFiler]

Did you keep their security deposits or something? (which still seems like a civil matter to me). I am not understanding why the police are involved.

These security deposits never represented a security interest and were not returned. The tenants were never allowed to move into the residence and the original reasons given were rather interesting.

[OhioFiler]

Did you list their deposit as assets?

The deposits were gone. There were no assets to list.

[AngelinaCatHub]

Well I remember that thread so there are three? I was aware of two, similar but contradictory threads. I apologized to Ms. Bellee (and will assume I am wrong and give her the benefit of doubt) but I would feel real foolish if it proved that I was correct and we have another school yard playmate.

I will stay neutral and help the person until I see another contradictory post. 'Hub

[AngelinaCatHub]

This does not compute: http://www.bkforum.com/showthread.php?t=47388 Paragraph three.

If a lawyer gives pro bono information in a case that is pro se, is the lawyer breaking the law, or representing a party in the back ground? There is nothing wrong with not charging a client, what may be fraud on the lawyers part is giving legal information but not being on the record as 'counsel of record'.

I sure wish one of our two great lawyers can chime in here with an answer. 'Hub

[mom2three09]

This situation was discussed a few weeks ago. The OP took multiple deposits from multiple future roommates then decided not to allow any of them to become roommates but started the search for roommates anew.

I'm not sure what bellee's intentions were but I can see why these roommates may have "conspired" and contacted the police. I can certainly see why the police would pursue an investigation. Had Bernie Madoff filed bankruptcy I doubt the court would have offered him protection from his clients. You can't take money from people under false pretense and look for the courts to protect you when it is the other party who was aggrieved.

Exactly! I was just about to search for all of the OP's threads to see if she was the one who posted about taking people's deposits but then not allowing them to move in! Thanks, Ohio, for pointing it out that she is, in fact, the one

IMO, what the OP did was wrong and probably does constitue FRAUD! Glad those who she scammed took it to the police and are filing the proper paperwork with the BK courts. Hopefully they will get their $$ back!

[AngelinaCatHub]

523(a)4,6

(4) for fraud or defalcation while acting in a fiduciary capacity, embezzlement, or larceny;

(6) for willful and malicious injury by the debtor to another entity or to the property of another entity;

[AngelinaCatHub]

This does not compute: http://www.bkforum.com/showthread.php?t=47388 Paragraph three.

If a lawyer gives pro bono information in a case that is pro se, is the lawyer breaking the law, or representing a party in the back ground? There is nothing wrong with not charging a client, what may be fraud on the lawyers part is giving legal information but not being on the record as 'counsel of record'.

I sure wish one of our two great lawyers can chime in here with an answer. 'Hub

I PMed one of our good lawyer members. He states that it is not illegal for a lawyer to give private help un-represented by that lawyer, and go pro se. 'Hub

[JimKutkowski]

I PMed one of our good lawyer members. He states that it is not illegal for a lawyer to give private help un-represented by that lawyer, and go pro se. 'Hub

Angie, its not illegal, just a stupid thing for a lawyer to do. Think about it like this: Your chest hurts. You go to your doctor. The doctor doesn't examine you because you catch her in the hallway of your apartment (yes my doctor is a she... and she rocks) and she says oh take an antacid. That would be insane. What if I'm having a heart attack and she tells me to take alka-seltzer and I drop dead.

Unless the lawyer has the whole picture they should not be giving advice. Unless the lawyer is willing to take on the whole case, its an unnecessary risk. Now I do about 10% pro bono work, but that case is a case I am fully responsible for, so I don't do a halfway job on it.

By the way, nothing I ever wanted to hear started with: "You are an attorney, right?"

My state doesn't require that.

Unless I'm mistaken, all debts owed to you need to be disclosed, usually on Schedule B under category 18, and that is required under Federal Bankruptcy Code, not state law.

If your rental property is a separate entity, that is another story, but otherwise these debts must be disclosed

If this is a real scenario, you need a lawyer, and you need one real badly, and its going to be tough because most lawyers won't take a case that was started pro se because of all the mistakes that will need to be fixed before they can get to work. You should expect to pay an extra $1000 on top of what is normally charged, and that is if you can find a lawyer to do this.

[AngelinaCatHub]

Thank you Jim as well as MSbklawyer for your response. I have seen some pretty bad lawyers and some pretty good ones. The ones I know personally all have a slot for pro bono work. This is called "heart". Not only is it good business, it is good for the soul. I applaud you for your pro bono work and there sometimes is no recourse for innocent people due to funds. I am sure MSbklawyer does the same. After all, you're both here (unofficially) giving strangers free advice that only professionals could have the knowledge that lay people like us would not. I commend you both. 'Hub

[justbroke]

I PMed one of our good lawyer members. He states that it is not illegal for a lawyer to give private help un-represented by that lawyer, and go pro se. 'Hub

Also, most Districts (Bankruptcy or U.S. District Court), don't like "ghost writing". That's where a pro se Debtor has an attorney (pro bono or not) writing papers for them. While i don't think ghostwriting is illegal, it could be bad.

This is a strange thread.

[Bell30656]

When I was 18 years old, I responded to an "Apartment for Rent" ad. The apartment wasn't going to be available to move into until the end of the month. There were a lot of people wanting this apartment so I paid the deposit of $500 in cash. I even got a receipt. It turned out that a couple of dozen other people also gave a deposit and got receipts.

My advice to the OP... Pay back the deposits. Otherwise you may find that one of these folks owns a Louisville Slugger and wants to get it back like the Red Cross... One pint at a time. Even if one of the people you scammed doesn't go vigilante, do you have the funds to post bond? Even if they can't convict you in court, if you are arrested you will have to post bond, hire a lawyer and then probably still have to pay back the money.

[AngelinaCat]

This is a strange thread.

That is for sure.

[pcn]

Strange, yet entertaining. In a strange way.