Marshal's Notice of Execution

[NSH]

It must still be pretty horrifying when they come pounding on your door, as I believe you said they did to you!

Here is another question I am worried about in this regard: What about when I leave my house? I left for work the other day and I saw someone in my driveaway lurking. Turns out they were not looking for me, but it made me think. What if I am on my way out to work and the Marshall and I "cross paths?"

I assume I can just not talk to him, not answer any questions, certainly not let him in or produce ID, but I have been virtually hiding out in my house during normal business hours, skulking around at night, and only leaving my house to go to work when I can help it.

I am into bike riding and roller blading for fitness, and I just don't want to "be seen" by these morons coming to scrounge through my house! What can they do to me if they catch me with my door open or leaving for work?

[music12]

i thought a law enforcement officer is allowed to ask for ID. doesn't the patriot act allow for that these days?

do you have a back door/entrance? is it just your house or are there other apartments in the building? do you have a peephole you can look out of to see if there is someone around?

[NSH]

I live in an upstairs apartment so I can (and DO) look out my front window whenever I go out. There are two apartments in this house, my landlord owns the ground floor apartment and basement, and I rent the upstais. My question is are the City Marshals actually considered "Law Enforcement" in the traditional way? Meaning do they have enforcement powers beyond towing cars and other debt collection tools?

Because I would never tell a cop to shove it who asked for ID, but would I be required by law to produce it for a Marshall? I don't believe they have the same enforcement powers as a local Sherrif, even though in NY they function in the same "collections" capacity as a Sherrif. In short, I don't believe they are real cops, but I could be wrong.

[music12]

those are good questions. i have no idea what the authority of a marshall is. try to look it up for your state. or you could try to call your local police directly and ask, but do it from a payphone!

[JGT]

NSH you are not reading what I wrote before. What you need to do is read up on the laws of search and seizure...Here is a start.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_and_seizure

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_warrant

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

What that Marshals letter is saying is they have a lein on your property, but NOT the right to enter your house EVEN if you bump into them on the street. All you have to do is say NO they cannot come into your house. They CANNOT get a search warrant! They have no cause, you have committed no crime or are under any suspicion of a crime, nor is there any exigent circumstance. You are protected by the 4th Amendment. This is why you can search until you are blue in the face, you will NEVER find one single solitary case where someone had their possessions taken from their house by a Marshal to satisfy a debt. I dare anyone to show me one single solitary case. Eviction is another matter, or towing your car from a public street, but a Marshal CANNOT get a warrant to go into your house simply to reposses! The only way they can get your stuff is if you dump it all on the street!! END OF STORY Stop sweating go to sleep. Matter of fact, if you are in debt PRAY they break into your house because you can then sue the living f**k out of them. I`ve talked to TWO lawyers about this already! Call one up if you don`t believe me.

[NSH]

You know what. JGT? i do believe you, but a lawyer already told me that I could have a problem with the Marshal. Still, that said, maybe I am talking to the wrong lawyers. Since you live in NYC, would you please PM me the names of the lawyers you are talking to about your BK and about this matter? I am still interviewing lawyers and not certain who I will use.

I will read those links tomorrow, and thanks!

[JGT]

NSH I was just thinking; Do you OWN this house? If so yes then I can see how you might have a problem as that would be considered your property but I don`t know, all I know is for an apartment like mine they have no right to break in. I don`t have the lawyers numbers on me as I am over my brothers place using his computer, but just call up any lawyer who knows real estate law, who deals with evictions, property seizures. They are all over the place in NY. Just remember though, some of these lawyers are going to try to scare you so you hire them which is what happened to me the first time I got that execution notice, so you are going to have to call a few and ask the right questions such as "How can they get a warrant when I have commited no crime nor are under any suspicion of a crime?" A big law firm is better than a small one as they really won`t care if you hire them or not and will lay down the facts for you. But I`m telling you, in NY or any place for that matter, a property seizure in someones apartment has NEVER happened!! Go to Google, do a search "Property seizure apartment" you will not find ONE case unless it`s someone who has committed a crime, like Bernie Madoff and even then it ONLY happened because his wife agreed to let it happen....Read.......

http://www.ibtimes.com.hk/articles/20090703/umarshals-begin-seizure-madoff-property.htm

Here is another thing to read...........

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/faqEditorial-29092.html#0

Just remember, this isn`t Nazi Germany where a cop or a Marshal or anybody can just waltz into your place simply because you owe money. It doesn`t work like that, this isn`t Mafia land, you have rights.

Look, just do a search and show me ONE case where someone had their stuff taken. You would think out of the the millions and millions of people out there in debt, there would be at least ONE case, but go ahead and look there isn`t.........

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Property+seizure+from+apartment&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

If this kind of stuff happens all the time, then there would be at least ONE person out there saying "The Marshal came and took all my stuff. What can I do?" but there isnt because Marshals CAN`T do it!

The ONLY time you will read where they DID do it is if that person comiitted a crime or is under suspicion of a crime, like drug dealers, theives, fugitives, stuff like that. Are you one of those? If not then you have nothing to worry about.

[JGT]

Also, I forgot...If you are renting this house, your landlord CANNOT give permission to the Marshals to enter your apartment. If he does, you can sue the sh*t out of him.

[NSH]

JGT, I am a renter not an owner, luckily. I am going to read through all of your links to get more info either today or tomorrow, but what you say makes perfect sense. As for the BK lawyer, are you sure a large firm is better than a small one?

Several people in this forum have cautioned members against these large "Bankcrupty Mill" law frms, particularly for a case as complex as mine (Lots of back taxes, hugepersonal unsecured debt, I used to own two businesses, etc.) becuse they will not be prepared to deal with AP's and because the US Trustee is going to be crawling so far up my ass they will risk exting through my nostrils!

Anyway, if you can send me the contact information in PM of all the lawyers you spoke to in NY I will call them. I am still looking for alawyer, but still in the process of filing tax years 06 through 08 over the next mont or two, HOPEFULLY!

[music12]

i am afraid those links are too general and don't deal with the issue at hand. they deal with whether something that was seized illegally can be used against you in a criminal case. here, the question is who owns the items they might take. it's not a seizure of your property if it's no longer considered your property. i don't think they can break in, but if they get a court order that they can break in, then they can. it's probably very unlikely that they would go that far. but anyway, look for links that are specific to seizure of property when there is a (civil) execution for a money judgment.

[backtoschool]

i am afraid those links are too general and don't deal with the issue at hand. they deal with whether something that was seized illegally can be used against you in a criminal case. here, the question is who owns the items they might take. it's not a seizure of your property if it's no longer considered your property. i don't think they can break in, but if they get a court order that they can break in, then they can. it's probably very unlikely that they would go that far. but anyway, look for links that are specific to seizure of property when there is a (civil) execution for a money judgment.

I agree with you music12. I posted links earlier in this thread to the nyc marshall's handbook which gives specifically what is needed in order for the marshall to break in and take stuff. I would go by the handbook, not by vague, general links.

[JGT]

They need a warrant to get into your place but the fact is a Judge is not and cannot grant it without probable cause just to seize personal items just to satisfy a debt.

Put it this way, say Mr. A lends Mr. B $10,000 bucks. Mr. A sues Mr. B to get the money repaid but Mr. B doesn`t show up in court (probably because he was never properly served like I was). The judge then says Mr. A can then take Mr. B`s property to satisfy the debt, so he calls up the Marshal to do it for him beause he doesn`t have the tools to do it, with the understanding the Marshal will get 5% of what he makes selling Mr. B`s stuff. He shows the Marshal the court order for the lien on Mr. B`s property, but Mr. B doesn`t own a car or a boat or anything. So Mr. A thinks Mr. B has some valuable stuff in his apartment and wants the Marshal to get a warrant to go into Mr. B`s apartment to take it. Well "thinking he owns valuable stuff" is not enough grounds to issue a warrant. You see what I am saying? It`s not enough probable cause to override the 4th amendment. The Marshal can send a letter to Mr. B saying he has a lien on his stuff, and that Mr. B can keep the stove, one TV and clothing etc, but THAT`S IT, that`s all he can do is send a letter. What else is he going to do? He can go to court and ask the Judge to have you surrender your stuff, but the Judge is going to ask "What stuff? What stuff exactly are we talking about here?" THere is NO WAY a Judge will issue a warrant for that!

The only way to get a warrant to enter a private residence is there has to be a crime or a suspicion of a crime or a suspicion of danger (like someone screaming help in the apartment) to justify issuing a warrant to enter a private residence, and if a Judge was crazy enough to issue it "just to see if you got valuable stuff" they could face being disbarred. I mean really think about this; If Judges had the power to issue warrants for something as simple as owing money, you`d have every company on earth busting down your door for payment, the cable guy, the electric company, late parking tickets, it`s NOT going to happen and it`s NEVER happened unless it`s Nazi Germany or other Totalitarian states. That`s why you will never find one single solitary case where it has ever happened, you can search until you are blue in the face you are not going to find it.

JUDGES DO NOT ISSUE WARRANTS BECAUSE YOU MIGHT OWN SOMETHING OF VALUE IN YOUR APARTMENT! It DOES NOT HAPPEN!

[JGT]

NSH I don`t know anything about the tax laws or how you resolve that. I would call a tax lawyer, there are zillions of lawyers all over NY who will answer anything you want for free.

[JGT]

Backtoschool; The Marshals handbook is referring to items that were sold on installments or leased such as a meter for the electric company, or a cable box. Something specific which can then be considered as a crime of theft if it is not returned.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/doi/html/marshals/mar6.html

They DO NOT issue warrants just to see if you got any stuff worth money.

[music12]

they can certainly summon you to court, put you under oath, and ask you what you have in your apartment. if you don't show up it would be considered contempt of court and you can be brought to court forcefully by a marshall (a civil form of being arrested). once you are there - one way or the other - you either tell the truth or lie. at that point they have some specifics about what's in your apartment. if they somehow find out one day that you have more than you said under oath that you have, you'd be both in contempt and you will have committed perjury, thus turning a civil case into a big criminal headache.

not that what i just described happens every day. i believe it's very rare. i am just saying that a judgment creditor is not without recourse.