Mass BK CH 7 - 341 Over -- PHEW!!!

[Charmony]

[bkfiler]

cool! great to hear!

how much credit got discharged?

did your studnet loans get discharged too?

"He then swore me in, and then he turns it over to my lawyer, who gave him the reason that I just gave him to what brought me to filing."

what does that mean? he asked the lawer to answer some questions too?

[newperson1127]

How much debt did you have??

[Charmony]

I only had about 50,000 and 20,000 was what I had left in student loans. I am not sure if the student loans were discharged or not. The trustee did not say anything about them. But I did rec. a letter from the company that I had my student loans through, that said I was paid in full.

No, my lawyer is the one who told him why I filed. then he asked me the standard questions, and it was over.

[bkfiler]

thats nice that your student loands were discharged. were they not goverment loans?

any idea why the trustee asked you attorney why you filed? i thought they ask you all the questions.

did he ask the attorneys for everyone else that or any questions too?

[FoolAndHisMoney]

Was your unsecured debt in line with your salary? You don't have to post your salary, just curious as to the ratio. I guess if your debt is in line with your income then it looks ok. I read at some legal web site (old case) about some guy that had 100k in debt and incurred it while earning 20k per year. With that sort of ratio it looks too much like the debt was incurred with intentions of filing.

Anyway glad it went well and good luck!

[jennga]

Way to go Charmony!!! I know how relieved you feel. This time last week I was riding the stress boat, tonight, I week later, it's just great to see others getting through this and feeling the weight begin to unload.

I was curious about your student loans as well. My lawyer had me list mine but then told me that of course they were not dischargeable but that we had to list all of my debt. I would LOVE to get a letter from SALLIEMAE saying I had a zero balance! I have paid on them for so long that I am down to only around 2k on them but hey, I'd let them discharge it

[bkfiler]

foolandhismoney, what if 80% of the over $120K in debt was incurred 4 years ago after loosing job making low 6 figures. made payments for 2 years while living on savings, ira, and credit cards without a job. lost a lot trading stocks with both savings and cash advances. all that ended.

then for the next 2 years after that, until recent unemployment, taking generic jobs.

how do you think they would calculate that ratio.

can they force me to go back to low 6 figure job instead. i guess i could but not sure if i want to anymore. any ideas how this is handled given its been 4 years of no work or generic jobs as my recent history.

do you have the link to that case you were talking about? or a pacer case number. thanks

[FoolAndHisMoney]

foolandhismoney, what if 80% of the over $120K in debt was incurred 4 years ago after loosing job making low 6 figures. made payments for 2 years while living on savings, ira, and credit cards without a job. lost a lot trading stocks with both savings and cash advances. all that ended.

then for the next 2 years after that, until recent unemployment, taking generic jobs.

how do you think they would calculate that ratio.

can they force me to go back to low 6 figure job instead. i guess i could but not sure if i want to anymore. any ideas how this is handled given its been 4 years of no work or generic jobs as my recent history.

do you have the link to that case you were talking about? or a pacer case number. thanks

Honestly, I don't know if anyone really looks into all this. The trustee usually asks, probably just to see how a debtor reacts. It's usually in the very rare instance 1% or so of all chapter 7 filings a creditor may dispute a debtor's discharge for fraud and if it goes to court the judge looks at a list of things such as eve of bk purchases, lying on the cc application or incurring debt without the ability to pay. The latter is a joke since almost everyone on this forum or in bk court takes on debt due to being broke and we need money. Some of us are maxed out and the cc companies increase our limits and complain that we incurred debt beyond our ability to pay. I imagine that it's mostly an issue if a very low income person somehow has six figure credit lines, but works in a car wash when the credit was issued that would raise a flag. Other then something so obvious it's just very hard to tell if it will be disputed or not. As far as statistics are concerned (usually 99%) as long as the debtor is honest and discloses everything in a few months the discharge (for dischargeable debts) will be there.

It's an old case but made some good reading. This guy was pretty much playing the credit card kiting scheme and got caught. What a jerk! Good reading.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=9th&navby=case&no=9455749

[bkfiler]

didnt know making minimums was illegal. guess we are all in trouble then. lol

i briefed over that link and still cant figure out how what he did was wrong. isnt that what a lot of people do with minimums and if they need money. most of us usually recover until we dont. thats why people file bk im thinking.

im my case i lost the job but had substantial savings, ira etc and thought i still could get work if things went bad. made a go at trading and low and behold in the land of kentucky (well, ohio actually lol) i lost all of it over time. all while making minimums. wonder if that case applies to me.

you can always pick up bits and piecies pro and con for your own case. its unerving. i always had the intent to pay even after i couldnt. but things changed. i bet that guy felt like that too. even though the court didnt think so which im still confused as to how what he did was different then anyone else does lol

[FoolAndHisMoney]

didnt know making minimums was illegal. guess we are all in trouble then. lol
i briefed over that link and still cant figure out how what he did was wrong. isnt that what a lot of people do with minimums and if they need money. most of us usually recover until we dont. thats why people file bk im thinking.

im my case i lost the job but had substantial savings, ira etc and thought i still could get work if things went bad. made a go at trading and low and behold in the land of kentucky (well, ohio actually lol) i lost all of it over time. all while making minimums. wonder if that case applies to me.

you can always pick up bits and piecies pro and con for your own case. its unerving. i always had the intent to pay even after i couldnt. but things changed. i bet that guy felt like that too. even though the court didnt think so which im still confused as to how what he did was different then anyone else does lol

Here's another link explaining it. Basically when you borrow from "Peter" to pay "Paul" make sure your income is sufficient to pay "Paul" something back. Again I wouldn't lose sleep worring over this. These are rare cases. A creditor can dispute any amount large or small for any time frame. Since it's expensive to do they only dispute very obvious cases usually within or close to the presumtion period. If you speed 5 to 7 miles over the speed limit on the highway chances are you won't get a ticket because it's too close to matter. You could get one but most likely won't. If you speed 15 to 20 miles over then you will get a ticket. Pretty much the same with disputes of discharge. They will look for obvious cases instead of guessing about a year old charge and losing in court.

http://www.credit.com/slp/chapter8/Beware-of-Cash-Advances.jsp

[Charmony]

Well my debt was maybe a few thousand under my sallary, but my current bills are now a big part of my income. I have a2 yr old who goes to daycare and that is about 900 a month by it self. Then there is Rent, utilities and other living expenses.

My student loans were consolidated almost 1yr 1/2 ago. I am guessing that they were not federal or government.

[AAAArt]

you can always pick up bits and piecies pro and con for your own case. its unerving. i always had the intent to pay even after i couldnt. but things changed. i bet that guy felt like that too. even though the court didnt think so which im still confused as to how what he did was different then anyone else does lol

I think that the 2 key words here are "intent" and "ability" This man was not only umemployed, but on disability. He had no hope or "ability" to find or get a job or even have a plan (like day trading) which would enable him to pay back the debt. What was his intent? He had 26 cc's, one with a limit of $20,000 and that was 15 years ago, a rather high limit. He took out that card and used it for living expenses and paid the minimums from other cc's.
Where was his intent or ability or even plan or hope of paying them back?
Now, if he had used the same amount of money for living espenses and tuition for training for a new career which would have enabled him to pay it back and then the "new career" never developed...his intent and perceived ability to pay it back would have been different.
What did he do wrong? He refused or was unable to live on his income and so deliberately defrauded a cc company in a systematic manner over 2 years, while knowing that there was no way in which he could or would be able to pay that back. Art

[bkfiler]

[quest42]

You know what the CC companies call those who pay in full each month?

Deadbeats !

Yes, it's true, that's what they are called, I am not joking!