accepting a better job

[desertgrl74]

Can I accept a better paying job before my 341 meeting? All the paperwork is done and my 341 is set for Oct. 5th. Just wondering if it would be okay to accept it if I get an offer before the meeting.

[bkmaggster]

In general, your Bk estate is set on the day you file, which means you can go ahead and get a new job. However, I have seen advice from many people here that you shouldn't accept a new job until after the 341, "just in case." In case of what? I'm not sure.

I can only tell you my experience:

I accepted new job 5/1 which would not start until 9/16.

I filed on 6/16

New job was included on petition where it asks if income will change.

Monthly income - expenses before new job = -750 (this was amount on schedule)

Income - expenses after new job = +800 (not really, because of student loans)

Trustee just verified new job and new income, but did not question expenses or disposable income.

So based on my experience, I would say you are just fine accepting a new job.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

[brokeballer]

I'm in a somewhat similar situation. I got a big promotion at work. Same employer. My 341 is Sep 18th. My first paycheck that will include the increased pay will be the Sep 18th. I'm not too worried.

[lrprn]

However, I have seen advice from many people here that you shouldn't accept a new job until after the 341, "just in case." In case of what? I'm not sure.

The reason you see this suggestion offered is because some trustees ask during the 341 if the filer's income or expenses have changed since filing (ours asked this and other trustees have as well).

If DesertGirl74 takes a new job after filing, starts getting a significantly increased paycheck before the 341, and then her trustee asks this question when she's under oath, since she doesn't want to lie, she'll have to answer yes. This opens up the possibility the trustee may continue the 341 to investigate the new income so soon after filing. Also many trustees ask the filer to bring all paycheck stubs received since filing or a printout of their income deposit account from the day before the 341, so the increased income can show up there as well.

By waiting until after the 341 to accept the new job, there's no possibility of temptation to lie under oath and no possibility the trustee will investigate. After the 341 is over, 99% of the time there's no further contact with the trustee again, so no risk by taking a new job then.

To split hairs even further, unless an actual paycheck is received before the 341, accepting the job before the 341 doesn't actually change the income stated on the filing forms. Something might happen before that first paycheck arrives, so the filer can answer that their income hasn't changed since filing with a clear conscience.

[debtmonster]

If it's pretty safe to get a job or a better paying job after the 341, why can't I buy a car as well before discharge? Especially if there will be no further investigation?

It always seems to be better to wait until a 341 and not rock the boat before hand. You don't want to open any can of worms. That's why we just put everything on hold. After our 341, my wife applied for a job and within a week or so, they eventually hired her. We will soon be back over the median income now with her having a job.

But now my concern is us losing both cars 45 days after we filed. Supposedly our lawyer will fight and help us keep our cars for quite a bit of time, but I need a contingency plan in the event this doesn't work. I also don't want a plan that can botch up a bankruptcy. Let's supposed I manage to get a $4,000 to $5,000 dollar car in and I get the title in my name just before discharge. How can this get me into trouble? What is the trigger to set off the court to contact me and bother me how I got that money and what not?

This would be the same kind of trigger that a job could possibly trigger in the original post.

I would imagine that the court is too busy to chase a million people per year to find out what they did after their 341's before the person's discharge.

What kind of software would the court have that could talk to hundreds of thousands of other databases between banks, the DMV, state vehicle records or what not? Do they have such a thing or is all of this stuff just scare tactics?

[bkmaggster]

The reason you see this suggestion offered is because some trustees ask during the 341 if the filer's income or expenses have changed since filing (ours asked this and other trustees have as well).

If DesertGirl74 takes a new job after filing, starts getting a significantly increased paycheck before the 341, and then her trustee asks this question when she's under oath, since she doesn't want to lie, she'll have to answer yes. This opens up the possibility the trustee may continue the 341 to investigate the new income so soon after filing. Also many trustees ask the filer to bring all paycheck stubs received since filing or a printout of their income deposit account from the day before the 341, so the increased income can show up there as well.

By waiting until after the 341 to accept the new job, there's no possibility of temptation to lie under oath and no possibility the trustee will investigate. After the 341 is over, 99% of the time there's no further contact with the trustee again, so no risk by taking a new job then.

To split hairs even further, unless an actual paycheck is received before the 341, accepting the job before the 341 doesn't actually change the income stated on the filing forms. Something might happen before that first paycheck arrives, so the filer can answer that their income hasn't changed since filing with a clear conscience.

Thanks for your explanation.

Just to be perfectly clear about my situation - I disclosed both in the petition and during the 341 that I had accepted a job and verified both on paper (the petition) and verbally (at the 341) how much the new job would pay and when it would start.

It was not an issue in my particular case, in my district, with my trustee.

I would never suggest someone lie about anything like that.

My experience was that in being totally honest about it, there were no negative repercussions.

[scla]

Getting a new job

Generally your bankruptcy attorney should advice you whether he considers this a potential issue within that district. He/she would be aware whether the trustee in that area tends to examine this issue at the 341 hearing and ask questions about changes in your current employment and income changes.

For example where I practice some of the trustees tend to ask questions about changes in current income and employment. I have not seen a trustee as of yet move to continue the hearing on the basis of changes in income, but that does not remove the potential that the trustee will want to examine these changes and move to argue potential abuse. Generally the basis for qualifying is the 6 month look back period of income but there are always unsettled questions of law such as whether in that circuit of courts they consider increases of income as potential abuse under the bankruptcy laws.

[debtmonster]

At my 341, they didn't even ask anything about my current or future income. Wasn't that sweet? So I didn't have to lie about anything, tell any half-truths, or withhold any information. It was awesome!

[killinstinct]

That is sweet. Short and sweet, short and sweet, that's what we all hope for....

Two more days...

[OhioFiler]

If it's pretty safe to get a job or a better paying job after the 341, why can't I buy a car as well before discharge? Especially if there will be no further investigation?

It always seems to be better to wait until a 341 and not rock the boat before hand. You don't want to open any can of worms. That's why we just put everything on hold. After our 341, my wife applied for a job and within a week or so, they eventually hired her. We will soon be back over the median income now with her having a job.

But now my concern is us losing both cars 45 days after we filed. Supposedly our lawyer will fight and help us keep our cars for quite a bit of time, but I need a contingency plan in the event this doesn't work. I also don't want a plan that can botch up a bankruptcy. Let's supposed I manage to get a $4,000 to $5,000 dollar car in and I get the title in my name just before discharge. How can this get me into trouble? What is the trigger to set off the court to contact me and bother me how I got that money and what not?

This would be the same kind of trigger that a job could possibly trigger in the original post.

I would imagine that the court is too busy to chase a million people per year to find out what they did after their 341's before the person's discharge.

What kind of software would the court have that could talk to hundreds of thousands of other databases between banks, the DMV, state vehicle records or what not? Do they have such a thing or is all of this stuff just scare tactics?

Not every thread on here is an invitation for you to post about your car problems.

[backtoschool]

If you made a formerly high income, then it is not advisable to go back to that income or anywhere near that income while your case is open.

My 2008 tax return showed income of over $175k (I lived in nyc so that is not as much as it sounds) but I got laid off in January and no longer have that income. My lawyer told me under no uncertain terms that I should not even think about taking a job in that salary range for at least six months after my case closed. (I think this is obvious, but am posting it, just in case it keeps someone from doing something that will raise a red flag with the trustee).

Given the income on my income tax return, the trustee definitely asked me about why I wasn't working, and if I had taken on a job since I filed. So, if you had a high income anytime in the last two years that shows up on the tax returns that you give the trustee, if you could wait until after your case is closed to start the job, that would be optimal.



In my case, I am going back to school and switching careers to a career that pays much less, so if the trustee had asked me if I would ever earn that income again, I could have honestly said no. (he didn't ask me that though).

[debtmonster]

Not every thread on here is an invitation for you to post about your car problems.

Sorry. If I could delete the post, I would.

[ingrid29]

I would ask your attorney. I am currently unemployed, and my attorney told me not to look for a job or increase my income by much until after the 341. I own a small business that I am trying to grow.

Attorney said: "There is a legitimate question about what earnings you might receive down the road, but no one is trying to keep tabs on you. So, trying to grow your business ( and being a bit unsure if it will work out) is the best attitude for the Trustee."

(I am in TX).

[neveragain09]

So, backtoschool, I am curious as to why your attorney would say not to accept a higher paying job for 6 months after your case is closed? What can happen? I thought once it was closed, it was closed. Does the UST or TT keep tabs on you after your discharged and closed? Do you have to continue in a sense to look over your shoulder? What if you have a better opportunity that comes up after your case is closed? Are you suppose to turn it down? I thought you were getting a fresh start with filing bankruptcy.

[backtoschool]

So, backtoschool, I am curious as to why your attorney would say not to accept a higher paying job for 6 months after your case is closed? What can happen? I thought once it was closed, it was closed. Does the UST or TT keep tabs on you after your discharged and closed? Do you have to continue in a sense to look over your shoulder? What if you have a better opportunity that comes up after your case is closed? Are you suppose to turn it down? I thought you were getting a fresh start with filing bankruptcy.

The trustee has a right to reopen your case if new material evidence comes up that you have assets or your situation has significantly changed. The example most often given by lawyers is winning the lottery. If you won the megabucks lottery right after your case closed, the trustee would most likely come back and demand some money to pay creditors. The trustee has the legal right to do this.

In my case, going back to a large salary, would give me the means to pay some money to my creditors, so my lawyer advised against it, which in my opinion was good advice.

Most people getting jobs after bankruptcy are not going to fall into a red flag category for the trustee, but in my case, I only had a below the median income for six months. My income was WAY above the median before that, and it would look suspicious if my income went WAY above the median right after I filed.

So in a limited sense, the trustee does have a right to reopen your case, but in the practical sense the trustee doesn't have the time or incentive to do so, unless a lot of money is involved.