Would you add this to bk

[stressedNC]

My son broke his arm on the 8/8 we filed bk on the 8/21. We did not get our bills until this week. Our portion after insurance is almost 2k. This is ER on 8/8 and two ortho visits on 8/11 and 8/20. Should we and add this? Since it is only $100 to add it I think we should, but I am not sure if there is something I am missing.

[justbroke]

Yes, you can add this as you incurred the charge on 8/8. Doesn't matter when they actually billed it. It will cost you $26 to amend your petition.

Wait, your lawyer wants $100 to amend your petition? God, I'm in the wrong business. I could see $75, but $100??? Hopefully, that INCLUDES the fee of $26 paid to the court.

[backtoschool]

You can only add debt that was accrued before the date of filing.

You accrued the "debt" before you filed, ie, you had the medical expense, but it would all depend on when you found out what your insurance would cover, etc., ie when you got the bill for what you owe.

I think you are going to raise a red flag for the visit that is so close to filing (the 8/20 visit). The creditor could object that you knew you were going to file bankruptcy and then you scheduled an ortho appt. I think you may have an AP on the ortho visits, but that is just my opinion. Nobody decides to declare bankruptcy on the day they file, so a bill that happened right before you filed, would be a situation where you accrued services that you knew you could not pay for, and the creditor might file an objection.

[justbroke]

You accrued the "debt" before you filed, ie, you had the medical expense, but it would all depend on when you found out what your insurance would cover, etc., ie when you got the bill for what you owe.

Wait a moment. It's irrelevant as to when it was billed. It matters when it was incurred. It was incurred on 8/8-8/20 and they filed on 8/21.

Also, there is no red flag. Medical needs as well as necessary expenditures (food, clothing, shelter) are not red flags.

The only creditor who would go through a very expensive (at least $4K) complaint process (adversary proceeding/AP) on medical or food/clothing... is an uninformed creditor. Worse case, is that the creditor threatens a 2004 Examination and that they "might" file an AP to challenge the dischargeability.

If you read the Bankruptcy Code on non-dischargeable debt, in 11 USC 523, it reads that "consumer debts owed to a single creditor and aggregating more than $500 for luxury goods or services incurred by an individual debtor on or within 90 days before the order for relief under this title are presumed to be nondischargeable".

Key words are "luxury good or services". Medical expenses are not a luxury. (Well, to some people, having medical care is a luxury, but medical care is not a luxury per the Bankruptcy Code.)

[backtoschool]

Wait a moment. It's irrelevant as to when it was billed. It matters when it was incurred. It was incurred on 8/8-8/20 and they filed on 8/21.

Also, there is no red flag. Medical needs as well as necessary expenditures (food, clothing, shelter) are not red flags.

The only creditor who would go through a very expensive (at least $4K) complaint process (adversary proceeding/AP) on medical or food/clothing... is an uninformed creditor. Worse case, is that the creditor threatens a 2004 Examination and that they "might" file an AP to challenge the dischargeability.

If you read the Bankruptcy Code on non-dischargeable debt, in 11 USC 523, it reads that "consumer debts owed to a single creditor and aggregating more than $500 for luxury goods or services incurred by an individual debtor on or within 90 days before the order for relief under this title are presumed to be nondischargeable".

Key words are "luxury good or services". Medical expenses are not a luxury. (Well, to some people, having medical care is a luxury, but medical care is not a luxury per the Bankruptcy Code.)

Point well taken. I was concerned since it was so close to filing, it would raise a red flag.

[justbroke]

Point well taken. I was concerned since it was so close to filing, it would raise a red flag.

I just wanted to clarify what you wrote. Nothing would stop the creditor from actually filing a complaint, but it is extremely unlikely and super rare that it gets done. I have never read a case where a creditor filed a complaint on medical expenses. Doesn't mean it can't happen, the probability is just low.

I just want the poster and others to know, that medical expenses are not going to get you into trouble. It is not likely to cause any issues.

Just as a little added public information... "a much-cited 2005 study show that medical expenses contribute to less than 20 percent of all bankruptcies, far fewer than the 50 percent estimate offered by the original study’s authors, according to an article by David Dranove of the Kellogg School of Management and Michael L. Millenson, a consultant and visiting scholar at the Kellogg School, published today as a Health Affairs Web Exclusive." (Source: http://www.bankruptcyattorneyarizona.com/)

I just wanted to add that because there is much hype that medical insurance costs are what is the cause of all these bankruptcies. usually it's a contributor, but now a Kellogg researcher has concluded that it's less than 20%!

[whipster1]

Yep he is screwing you with the fee...I would ask for a discount since it is healthcare-related or some-such reason...give him/her a sob story.

Even if he won't lower the fee, paying 100 to get rid of 2K+ is not a bad deal.

Good luck!

[backtoschool]

I just wanted to clarify what you wrote. Nothing would stop the creditor from actually filing a complaint, but it is extremely unlikely and super rare that it gets done. I have never read a case where a creditor filed a complaint on medical expenses. Doesn't mean it can't happen, the probability is just low.

I just want the poster and others to know, that medical expenses are not going to get you into trouble. It is not likely to cause any issues.

Just as a little added public information... "a much-cited 2005 study show that medical expenses contribute to less than 20 percent of all bankruptcieshttp://www.bankruptcyattorneyarizona.com/)

I just wanted to add that because there is much hype that medical insurance costs are what is the cause of all these bankruptcies. usually it's a contributor, but now a Kellogg researcher has concluded that it's less than 20%!

Your posts are always so helpful justbroke I always learn so much from you! You rock

[IBroke]

Nobody decides to declare bankruptcy on the day they file, so a bill that happened right before you filed, would be a situation where you accrued services that you knew you could not pay for, and the creditor might file an objection.

I would like to know how many people in this country are forced to go to the EM to get a treatment they actually "know" they can't afford. Looking at the number of BKs that are caused by such bills - shouldn't they all be rejected?

Although I understand what you're saying, you have to keep in mind that an EM-bill and a broken arm is not an expense you "willfully" caused - just as justbroke said. That's why I doubt it can't be discharged. In fact, it's happening every day. That's a reason why we need health care reform...

[justbroke]

I would like to know how many people in this country are forced to go to the EM to get a treatment they actually "know" they can't afford. Looking at the number of BKs that are caused by such bills - shouldn't they all be rejected?

The stats show that the medical bills are "not" the major contributor to bankruptcies. The powers in that District we call Columbia would have you believe that.

I do agree that many people seek routine medical care, from the emergency room. That itself is causing the healthcare costs to rise, but not the bankruptcies.

[Amy26]

Hey that fee is cheap... I had to pay 250 bucks to have my petition amended.

[liz417]

My attorney charges $175 plus the court cost of $26 to amend anything

[stressedNC]

I think you are going to raise a red flag for the visit that is so close to filing (the 8/20 visit). The creditor could object that you knew you were going to file bankruptcy and then you scheduled an ortho appt.

The ortho appt was because my son broke his ulna and radius, that was hardly planned. I really thought our insurance that we pay $1300 a month for would cover 80% of it(like it is suppose to), however they paid less than half.

They don't fix broken bones in the ER like when most of us were younger. Now you have to visit the ortho to get the cast and a second set of x-rays and anything else they can rake you over the coals for...

He had to go on the 11th to get a cast and then they scheduled him for a recheck a week later because the fracture in the radius was almost completely through the bone and the x-rayed it a third time to see if it was healing properly.

[stressedNC]

I would like to know how many people in this country are forced to go to the EM to get a treatment they actually "know" they can't afford. Looking at the number of BKs that are caused by such bills - shouldn't they all be rejected?

The sad part is one of the reasons we can't afford it is because we pay $1300 a month for our medical insurance which should have covered 80% but is only covering 80% of what they say the ER and Orthopedist can charge us(about 40% of the bill).
Guess who our insurance is through? My husband's employer who happens to be the very hospital we visited and that our insurance won't pay for........

[justbroke]

Guess who our insurance is through? My husband's employer who happens to be the very hospital we visited and that our insurance won't pay for........

Now that should just be illegal.