Whats the worse that can happen?

[SoStressed58]

Whats the worse can happen if a creditor objects and wins? I am on disability and can i make payments to this credit card company? I am not saying this will happen but i am curious that maybe if it does i will be prepared. Also how do you value the things you own? Thanks lindsey

[AngelinaCatHub]

Read all the "stickies" on the beginning on the forum 7. If you do not have the money to pay, it is unlikely that the Judge would allow them to be paid from a rock without blood. It is also unlikely that any creditor would be at your 341. Not 100%, but mostly they don't bother.

They would have to get and Adversary Procedure and have good cause not to honor bk Judge. You don't need to worry unnecessarily. 'Hub

[backtoschool]

The worst case scenario, would be that the creditor would adversary procedure which would be a separate hearing to determine if the charges in question were presumed to be abuse. If they won (and they would need to prove you intended to file bankruptcy when you made the charges and that the charges were luxuries or cash, etc, and that is very hard to prove), then only the particular charges in question would be excluded from discharge and you would still be liable for them.

This usually only happens if you charge luxury items or expensive items or take cash advances right before you file (ie in the last six months before filing).

[AngelinaCatHub]

The worst case scenario, would be that the creditor would adversary procedure which would be a separate hearing to determine if the charges in question were presumed to be abuse. If they won (and they would need to prove you intended to file bankruptcy when you made the charges and that the charges were luxuries or cash, etc, and that is very hard to prove), then only the particular charges in question would be excluded from discharge and you would still be liable for them.

This usually only happens if you charge luxury items or expensive items or take cash advances right before you file (ie in the last six months before filing).

This is true, however with some differences. Usually they would only make a motion of objection, for fraud or malicious debts. An Adversary Procedure is far from just a hearing. It is a full suit outside of the bk but tied to it. If the Plaintiff wins the monies are determined and do not necessarily be in effect at the time of the bk. It would however, survive the bk as non dischargable. This is rare and would be a big deal compared to just a normal family style bk. 'Hub

[killinstinct]

I would like to add that AP's seem to be exceedingly rare. I have watched the forum for months and researched on my own. HHM's sticky on AP's really explains the process well. Take a look at that. I've only seen AP's mentioned twice on this forum: one involved an ex-spouse who obtained a judgment through divorce that was going to be discharged; the other was brought by a member's FATHER who was a creditor. Nasty family drama stuff.

Bottom line seems to be as always, the creditors are looking for money. If you have no way to pay them, it makes NO sense for them to hire a lawyer to go after you with an AP, even if they do think they can win.

Anyone else chime in here? I'd like to hear about some real life AP experiences if they're out there, but they don't seem to be....

[backtoschool]

AMEX has been known to go for an AP if the filer racked up large debt right before filing. I have seen several threads here and on other boards to that effect, but I had to really search for them.

http://www.bkforum.com/showthread.php?t=40431&highlight=amex

[killinstinct]

Also, I saw you asked about valuing your posessions. Our attorney advised 'replacement value' or what we would receive if we sold the items ourselves. KBB for cars, private party value. I'm not sure what state you're in, but typically people are well within exemptions (meaning they get to keep everything). Look up the bankruptcy exemptions for your state to be sure. Also, some states (like mine) allow you to use the federal exemptions if you wish, which was the way to go in our case.

When our petition was filed, almost everything was lumped together in one big figure, especially the household stuff, clothing, etc. Our lawyer didn't itemize anything other than the cars and a couple more 'valuable' items that stood out (musical insturments, firearms, bonds, 457 retirement account). These are typically things that differ by district and trustee, etc., I imagine. Our lawyer probably just knew what the court would want to see...

Good luck to you. I was totally freaked out as well, but BK's really pretty painless. We mostly torture ourselves.

[killinstinct]

AMEX has been known to go for an AP if the filer racked up large debt right before filing. I have seen several threads here and on other boards to that effect, but I had to really search for them.

http://www.bkforum.com/showthread.ph...highlight=amex

Thanks!

I noticed the story had a happy ending though. AMEX sent a threatening letter but didn't appear to do anything else. The debtor in this case was still discharged and he said that he owed AMEX tens of thousands of dollars. All they ended up doing was sending a threatening letter to his lawyer, which they appeared to just ignore...

[backtoschool]

Thanks!

I noticed the story had a happy ending though. AMEX sent a threatening letter but didn't appear to do anything else. The debtor in this case was still discharged and he said that he owed AMEX tens of thousands of dollars. All they ended up doing was sending a threatening letter to his lawyer, which they appeared to just ignore...

That's why I posted it, it had a good ending.

It is very difficult to prove intent and fraud in a bankruptcy case, and it is costly for the creditor. For creditors like AMEX, who keep a black list, and will never give you another card until you pay them in full, discharge or not, it is simply easier to move on to trying to collect from someone that hasn't filed yet. I know that right up to filing I was getting offers from amex that if I paid my debt they would give me an optima card, and I was ONE YEAR late on that debt. (I started getting behind before I lost my job, and amex was the first that I became late on....)

[shabam]

Whats the worse can happen if a creditor objects and wins? I am on disability and can i make payments to this credit card company? I am not saying this will happen but i am curious that maybe if it does i will be prepared. Also how do you value the things you own? Thanks lindsey

Why do you feel they will object? They have to have a good reason to object.

[AngelinaCatHub]

Well, about AP's, you are posting to one who has one. The deal is in a short story: My enemy who aided in my demise financially attempted to take a five year suit he did nothing with, (and I failed to get it dismissed for non performance) filed an AP to ruin my bk. He took a two week trial (estimated) and my bk Judge allotted four hours to it.

I protested it as an active suit outside of the venue and was not a bk suit, the adversary stated it was a malicious action on my part and any proceeds should be awarded. I spoke to the adversary's lawyer, and he was really a nice guy. He knew what was going on and said his opinion was the trial should be thrown bac kto the County where it belonged. He also stated he knew the Judge did not want to deal with this civil suit. So my AP is still up in the air as to the outcome of this trial still not acted upon. So, God was good to us, and struck this evil being down and he had a massive coronary, quad bypass and lost use of his kidneys. Karma you could say, but this Dude was an evil baxterd.

So, to date, I am waiting one year for another chance to close for non prosecution next year.

[AngelinaCat]

I would like to add that AP's seem to be exceedingly rare. I have watched the forum for months and researched on my own. HHM's sticky on AP's really explains the process well. Take a look at that. I've only seen AP's mentioned twice on this forum: one involved an ex-spouse who obtained a judgment through divorce that was going to be discharged; the other was brought by a member's FATHER who was a creditor. Nasty family drama stuff.

Bottom line seems to be as always, the creditors are looking for money. If you have no way to pay them, it makes NO sense for them to hire a lawyer to go after you with an AP, even if they do think they can win.

Anyone else chime in here? I'd like to hear about some real life AP experiences if they're out there, but they don't seem to be....

Search for the very earliest posts by AngelinaCat and AngelinaCatHub, mid April 2008. The filing of this AP against us is what prompted me to search the Internet for Adversary Proceedings. That is when I found this Forum, and HHM's excellent article on same, and we joined.