Had necessary surgery: Used CC to pay

[Sigh]

Slightly over 2 weeks ago I had surgery for a necessary condition that the doctor was concerned could potentially cause me problems later on in terms of physical and mental performance (hormonal imbalance, thus causing gynecomastia). What really pushed me to doing this was one of the risks being it could possibly turn into cancer later on (was a low risk at the time of surgery, but nevertheless it chances could grow in time, due to the hormal imbalance). Unfortunately, I do not have insurance, so I used my credit card to pay for the operation ($10k even). Yes, I could have had the surgery performance cheaper at an inexperienced doctor, so I flew to a doctor that specializes in this condition for men, and who performance over 150 cases a year (sometimes 200+). I narrowed the choice down to 3 doctors, and ultimately chose this one. All of them were the same price, basically.

If I end up filing bankruptcy, what would the chances be that the creditor would file an AP, and what would be the best way to defend the medical necessity of this surgery if such happens?

Thanks you for your responses in advance.

Sigh

[Flamingo]

Did you get a second opinion on this "necessary" surgery because some doctors will perform any surgery if paid outside insurance via cash or credit card whether the surgery is needed or not cause there is no insurance questioning if the surgery is actually needed. Also, since you charged this surgery knowing that you would not be able to pay it back and had BK on the mind, it could be considered fraudulent in nature due to the intent. You would have to discuss this situation with a BK attorney and may have to wait at least a year until filing due to the amount. Best of luck to you!

[music12]

what you really need to do is get health insurance before you file.

i personally don't think any trustee will try to do research on your medical condition to see if the surgery was necessary. nor would the credit card. nobody is going to investigate the doctor to see if he was deceiving you into a surgery. it would just take up too many resources and way more than $10,000 on their part just to dig up dirt. i think once they see it was a medical condition they will leave it alone.

[StartingOver08]

Time is your friend!

You have just had your surgery two weeks ago it is much too soon after the surgery to file BK. The best thing for you to do is wait at least 6 mths, maybe longer to file. Pay the min payments on the card where you charged the procedure for at least three to six months. The best thing for you is to plan your BK well. The red flag that pops up is: were you insolvent when you charged the surgery? That would be an easy thing to prove if you file right away, IMO. The more time between the charge and the filing date, the more difficult it would be for the creditor to challenge.

[DeadManCrawling]

Also, with a recent surgery, there may be further treatments that become necessary that you are unaware of now. What if there are complications, even minor, that require more Dr. visits, or different more expensive meds, and so on.

Putting more time between surgery and filing BK will also allow some time for unexpected expenses and these other things to occur. I would sure want to include all of these in the BK filing.

[AngelinaCatHub]

The important thing is your health, for without that bk means nothing. You did the right thing. It was not planned that you would defraud anyone, nor is this a "luxury" purchase. It was totally necessary and I don't think even a AP would fly well with a Judge or Jury.

Keep paying a bit on all your cards if you can as if you favor that one card only, then you incur another situation of preferential payment. As others have said, "Time is your friend" if you can afford to lengthen your filing date. 'Hub

[jribe]

was the surgery for gynecomastia? Or something else?

I googled gynecomastia and i don't see where that would be technically "necesarry" sounds more cosmetic. I apologize in advance if i mistook this or if you meant another condition.

Just saying that there may be different responses if this is the case.

For example: i need to have a 10k surgery done for my vision because i may soon get a retinal detachment and could lose my vision. My procedure is still considered "elective" because at this point nothing has happened. Because of my age (let's say under 30) and severe myopia I have the vision of someone in the 70's age range. The problems i have are serious; but because i haven't had a detachment "yet" it's not "necessary". But to be preventative and reduce future costs it has been recommended by muiltiple doctors that i get this performed.

Now, if i were wanting to get LASIK because i was sick of wearing glasses, or contacts bothered me- this is also "elective" but in a different sense. The first story i gave you is more of a dire situation, while being considered elective. The second more cosmetic.

Slightly over 2 weeks ago I had surgery for a necessary condition that the doctor was concerned could potentially cause me problems later on in terms of physical and mental performance (hormonal imbalance, thus causing gynecomastia). What really pushed me to doing this was one of the risks being it could possibly turn into cancer later on (was a low risk at the time of surgery, but nevertheless it chances could grow in time, due to the hormal imbalance). Unfortunately, I do not have insurance, so I used my credit card to pay for the operation ($10k even). Yes, I could have had the surgery performance cheaper at an inexperienced doctor, so I flew to a doctor that specializes in this condition for men, and who performance over 150 cases a year (sometimes 200+). I narrowed the choice down to 3 doctors, and ultimately chose this one. All of them were the same price, basically.

If I end up filing bankruptcy, what would the chances be that the creditor would file an AP, and what would be the best way to defend the medical necessity of this surgery if such happens?

Thanks you for your responses in advance.

Sigh

[bkmaggster]

Agreed, this sounds like cosmetic plastic surgery, which would be considered a luxury purchase. I obviously don't know any details, but on the surface from what you've described...you're going to need to wait a while to file bk. Definitely get a lawyer's opinion.

[Sigh]

First off, I want to make it clear that I did not have this surgery ever thinking I would file bankruptcy afterwards. I did it for my health and peace of mind.

Sadly, every insurance company wants this to be known as "elective", not "necessary". It has been a battle against insured individuals and their doctors by the greedy evil insurance companies for decades. There are some insurance companies who will cover it (VERY few instances). Blue Cross, who used to be my insurance company, wouldn't.

To those who obviously do not know much about this condition, and please understand I am not knocking you for it, but when you have a hormonal issue this is not cosmetic. When you have pain from it, this is not cosmetic. When you have a greater chance of developing breast cancer later in life (yes, males get it, too!), especially with a history of such in my family, this is not cosmetic. I may be mistaken, but I do believe that for women, undergoing preventative surgery for this, is generally fully covered by insurance.

The surgery I had I had is covered in full in Canada and in other countries that give healthcare to all their citizens (i.e. most European countries). Just because the big insurance companies here don't recognize it, doesn't mean that it should be considered "elective". Possibly a trustree would agree, and there's always the possibility they won't, unfortunately.

Sincerely,

Sigh

[bkmaggster]

No one here likely has any medical training, and neither will your trustee. If your doctor said it was a medical neccessity, then I'm sure it was.

What I was trying to point out is that on the surface it sounds cosmetic, and so that may be what the trustee thinks, too. Please get a good lawyer who can back you up.

I hope your recovery is going well and your health continues to improve.

[Sigh]

I understand, and thank you for your kind followup reply. I will definitely relay this to a lawyer if I choose to do this. Thanks for all of your replies and concern in regards to this.

As for recovery, I now do not have any pain in my chest any longer, thankfully (just the bruising from the procedure, but no pain from being in between and pushing out against my muscles and skin). My mindset has drastically improved because of this.

[jribe]

i wasn't trying to knock what you wrote or intend to say you aren't entitled to have this done. As i stated in my post i have a surgery that all doctors have agreed is "necessary" but still is not covered through insurance because the worse hasn't happened yet. If i wait- and it happens, they'll cover it... I don't agree with waiting and making things worse.

In regards to your post; i was just looking for clarification. Because i googled the term; and it didn't come up with anything seemingly too serious. In fact- it was stated as a cosmetic surgery in the places i looked. Again- not saying you shouldn't have it done, nor that there aren't reasons to do it. Just pointing out that trustees are lawyers and googling a term takes 30 seconds.

If they do this and come up with the same search results on google- you may have a problem. There was no immediate danger of getting breast cancer, right? That's certainly something that is tested for and can be caught early if checked. I just want to make sure you're clear that this may be a problem for you in the BK. You'll want to put a year between yourself and this surgery.

From your first post the responses you received were from posters that just saw "medically necessary" and didn't look any further into it- which is why you got the "no problem" responses.

Because it is elective- you might have an issue. Not saying you will- but may. If they just see "dr xxx" on a credit card statement they may assume it was fine and say nothing. Or the trustee may ask what it is that you paid for.

Just playing devil's advocate here.. It's good to elicit other opinions and see what both sides may say.

Again - not trying to offend you at all. I agree that it's something that is horrible to deal with (have a close friend with this condition).

First off, I want to make it clear that I did not have this surgery ever thinking I would file bankruptcy afterwards. I did it for my health and peace of mind.

Sadly, every insurance company wants this to be known as "elective", not "necessary". It has been a battle against insured individuals and their doctors by the greedy evil insurance companies for decades. There are some insurance companies who will cover it (VERY few instances). Blue Cross, who used to be my insurance company, wouldn't.

To those who obviously do not know much about this condition, and please understand I am not knocking you for it, but when you have a hormonal issue this is not cosmetic. When you have pain from it, this is not cosmetic. When you have a greater chance of developing breast cancer later in life (yes, males get it, too!), especially with a history of such in my family, this is not cosmetic. I may be mistaken, but I do believe that for women, undergoing preventative surgery for this, is generally fully covered by insurance.

The surgery I had I had is covered in full in Canada and in other countries that give healthcare to all their citizens (i.e. most European countries). Just because the big insurance companies here don't recognize it, doesn't mean that it should be considered "elective". Possibly a trustree would agree, and there's always the possibility they won't, unfortunately.

Sincerely,

Sigh

[Phil]

Hi,
I have experience working for those horrid insurance companies...and this would definitely be considered cosmetic and not medically necessary.
I understand your frustration with that, but I think you have been given great advice to hold off filing for a few months and make payments on that card to avoid any chance of that charge being disputed, fraudelent, etc....
If you had a second opinion (in writing) that confirms this was medically necessary, you may be ok, but a few payments may save you having to pay back the entire charge and costing you more in the long run. Good luck!

[music12]

"There was no immediate danger of getting breast cancer, right?"

what?? sorry for being blunt but this is just an insane way of putting it. the thing that scares me is that there is anybody at all out there who thinks this way. "immediate danger"?? so if someone gets cancer when they are 50 and there are risk factors involved when they are 30, they shouldn't do anything about it because it's not "immediate"?? it's just insane.

[bkmaggster]

"There was no immediate danger of getting breast cancer, right?"

what?? sorry for being blunt but this is just an insane way of putting it. the thing that scares me is that there is anybody at all out there who thinks this way. "immediate danger"?? so if someone gets cancer when they are 50 and there are risk factors involved when they are 30, they shouldn't do anything about it because it's not "immediate"?? it's just insane.

I understand what you are saying music12, but the comparison would be to someone who has a hereditary background of breast cancer getting a bilateral mastectomy and reconstruction with no diagnosis of cancer. Most women wait until the danger is more "immediate" - like a suspicious mammogram leads to a biopsy leads to a lumpectomy leads to a diagnosis and *then* maybe a mastectomy is considered. Most women do not have their breast removed because someone in their family had breast cancer. They wait until there is an immediate danger. Does that make the comment sound less insane to you? I don't know.

Edited to add: Again I am not in any way trying to downplay the seriousness of Sigh's condition or surgery. I (and I believe others) are just explaining how it might be perceived.