car loan with no lien on title?

[Chowder]

Well, I'm not going to sit here and say they do in every case, but here's the verbatim text from a Report of No Distribution on the subject....

I know. I was being a smartypants. I'm betting "a diligent inquiry into the financial affairs of the debtor(s) and the location of the property belonging to the estate.." rarely includes verifying titles are properly recorded.

My concern was shedding too much light on this oversight while it could result in the asset being seized. Fortunately, in the OP's case, that concern is a non-issue.

Now the only concern is the creditor trying to repo.

[adviceplease]

Hmmm this is interesting. I have not pulled out the stuff on our cars yet but we have 2 cars through Ford Credit and my car insurance and only shows one with a lien on it. I wonder if the car insurance messed up and did not put it on there or if the dealer messed up something. The car with no lien listed is the more expensive one. We want to keep both and they are being exempted so hopefully everything is in order.

[justbroke]

Hmmm this is interesting. I have not pulled out the stuff on our cars yet but we have 2 cars through Ford Credit and my car insurance and only shows one with a lien on it. I wonder if the car insurance messed up and did not put it on there or if the dealer messed up something.

Car insurance companies get lien information from the insured. Just like owner-direct-paid homeowner's insurance tell their insurers who the lienholders (loss payees) are.

You need to check the titles on the vehicles to see if they have liens recorded. Also, perfection of a security interest in a motor vehicle varies by State.

[freedom7]

If you have the title then you can see if there is a lien recorded on it, if you don't you can check with your local dmv.

I have the NJ cert. of title with no lien listed and had the DMV check it for me and there is nothing in their records.

FOrd filed their lien 2 plus years late in PA based on their perfection rules, the claim they filed in my case in NJ they sent a copy of the PA title from 2008, so now I have to contact an attorney to handle an adversary proceeding.

[speedbump69]

I had a somewhat similar situation except didnt involve filing. Had a loan (7 year) on a vehicle that the finance company did not file a lien on. After a couple of years they realized what they did and called me and sent numerous requests for me to sign the title and mail it back (overnight prepaid fed-ex). I kept ignoring the request. Well all bieng what it is I stopped making payments for over a year never heard a word. Then one fri night i pull into my driveway and pulling in behind me is a couple repo agents to take the truck, they had an order to pick up from the finance company. I told the repo guy go ahead and take it but the state police will be sitting at the end of the road ready to take them in for vehicle theft as I hold a clear title current title in my name only with no lien recorded. He asked if I could prove what i claimed so I showed it to him. He took down info and got on the phone with his peeps. Said sorry to bother you and i asked him to let me know on his findings(They drove over 250 miles from thier loacation to me sorry). The middle of next week he called me and told me good luck and I would not be seeing him again.
Sold the truck for as much as I could to get rid of it and used the money to live on. (BTW all 4 lawyers i had interviewed and told of the no lien situation told me the finance company could still take the truck if I owned it after I filed for a 7 also that was if i filed right away and they advised me not to sell it but I did and waited some time to file TT was okay with it).

[Chowder]

....a couple repo agents ...

That is pretty much how I was thinking that situation would go down. They had to be good and pissed the bank misrepresented the situation.

Sold the truck for as much as I could to get rid of it and used the money to live on.

Yep, selling or trading it in on something else would be the way I'd go as well.

[freedom7]

what if I were to trade it in after discharge, can they then come after me in any way?

I spoke to a lawyer about this previously and he stated that I wouldn't be able to do that...

[Never_Again]

I would think that you still owe the money... the lien not being recorded would be a technicality. They still have a signed promissory note which states that you owe the money. The note also says that it is secured by the vehicle. So, I think that you are on tricky footing here. There is a lien, that you agreed to, even if it is not recorded.

[Chowder]

what if I were to trade it in after discharge, can they then come after me in any way?

I spoke to a lawyer about this previously and he stated that I wouldn't be able to do that...

How did the Lawyer figure you had no right to sell when a trustee wouldn't think twice about seizing that car? If it was stolen, you would get the insurance check. Clearly it's yours.

I agree, the terms of the loan (normally) would still stand. But if the debt is discharged, and the car has been transfered, what real recourse would they have?

[speedbump69]

I think the key would have been sell before filing. If You do not reaffirm and tt does not want it and all debts are discharged well then its yours I guess. I remember looking into this myself before I went broke and finding time limits and other criteria for a creditor to put a lien on a vehicle but do not recall the details. This is not something a bk lawyer would run across very often (as most banks are pretty good at getting it done) so they may not be up on the way to best handle and will want to take the path of least resistance.

[freedom7]

I have not found one attorney willing to do a motion to determine security and handle this AP for me. Almost to a man, they say, why bother, unless they motion to lift the stay, you don't have to do anything.

[Chowder]

Seems like that move could only hurt you anyway.

You could really have some fun and trade it in on an identical vehicle. Can you imagine the repo goon scratching his head when the VINs and plates don't match?

[freedom7]

That would be very entertaining, I guess at this point I am going to leave the situation alone and see what happens after discharge. I would imagine at that point they will be either harassing me to pick it up or leaving me alone since they may be "unsecured".

we'll see, keep you all posted.

[Chowder]

As long as you have it they can try to repo. Protect yourself accordingly.

I'd wish you luck but you seem very lucky.

[freedom7]

I'll take any luck I can get, it has been one hell of a long UN lucky streak in our lives, but thankfully we are battling through.

I would think they would at least attempt a repo after discharge, but I am thinking along the lines of once discharge is in hand I will think of the next move.

Again, you all are extremely helpful and thanks!