car loan with no lien on title?

[freedom7]

Filed our ch. 7 on 7/30/09 with ford credit as a secure debt. owe 23K, 06 explorer worth 14k, well, I found out from Ford over the phone that the dealer issued the title directly to me, which I don't have, would have to contact dmv to get and never perfected the lien. How is this going to work out? I was considering redemption or surrender, but the way the guy from ford was talking, it sounds like I may not have to pay much to keep the car? Any help would be great as we are pro-se filers with no other real property.

[aces67]

That's really odd. You should contact the DMV and look at the title. If there truly is no lien on it then I would think no one can repo it but I could be wrong.

[freedom7]

dmv shows clear title in my name. evidently since i purchased the car in a neighboring state, the dealer did the wrong paperwork and never tried to reconcile it with me since i had been paying. I signed all the loan docs at the time of purchase, but they never filed the lien on the title.

[bxphae]

Mine is the same way, according to my attorney, the bank that really holds the lein will have to contact the trustee since there will probably be an arguement over which party really will have the vehicle (trustee or WF) and he literally said "just leave it alone, they can deal with it, it doesn't effect you in any way."

[justbroke]

I found out from Ford over the phone that the dealer issued the title directly to me, which I don't have, would have to contact dmv to get and never perfected the lien. How is this going to work out?

Immediately contact the DMV and ask for the Title Section. Ask the Title Section if there is any liens recorded on teh vehicle. If not, then go down to the DMV and apply for a duplicate title.

I was considering redemption or surrender, but the way the guy from ford was talking, it sounds like I may not have to pay much to keep the car? Any help would be great as we are pro-se filers with no other real property.

Now, the unfortunate part is that you may have a $14K asset for which you have no exemptions to cover. First, you need to find out if the vehicle has any liens recorded. Just because the title was issued to you, doesn't mean there isn't an electronically recorded lien (eTitle). Find out from the DMV. if there are no recorded liens, then you'll need to decide how to exempt that asset, or you will be dealing with the UST wanting to take it and sell it.

If there is in fact no lien, and you exempt it all... it's yours to keep after the Chapter 7 is discharged! Ford would lose big, but that's their fault for not properly recording the lien.

[freedom7]

DMV says there are no liens on the title and that I can go there tomorrow and for $20.00 get a duplicate title.

I used my unused federal homestead(since we rent) and can double here in NJ, the car is exempted, but I was wondering what will happen since I did list Ford as secured on my schedules.

[justbroke]

DMV says there are no liens on the title and that I can go there tomorrow and for $20.00 get a duplicate title.

I used my unused federal homestead(since we rent) and can double here in NJ, the car is exempted, but I was wondering what will happen since I did list Ford as secured on my schedules.

They are unsecured. It doesn't matter than you entered it incorrectly on the forms. If you are so inclined, and I would be, file an amended Schedule B, C, D and F. Pay the $26 amendment fee. It will be worth it.

You will own a $14K car, free and clear of liens! Wow! When you think you're down and out and have none... what luck to have.

[freedom7]

thanks for the suggestion, i will amend the schedules, but someone told me that just by signing the loan docs, whether ford did the paperwork or not that they can still repo the car after discharge even though i have the title, so as lucky as i want to feel, i am still a bit unsure of how to react.

THAT would be the luckiest financial thing I have ever had though...

[justbroke]

thanks for the suggestion, i will amend the schedules, but someone told me that just by signing the loan docs, whether ford did the paperwork or not that they can still repo the car after discharge even though i have the title, so as lucky as i want to feel, i am still a bit unsure of how to react.

Who told you that? Was it an attorney? Yes, it could differ based on underlying State non-bankruptcy laws, so I'm not sure what you could do. I believe that some States treat the Note as granting a security-interest in the vehicle, with or without a lien recorded.

Maybe a Motion to Determine Secured Status and Avoid Lien might work to see if any security interest exists or to have it avoided anyhow.

[whipster1]

Congrats on your car. It is yours no matter if you listed it as Secured or not in the schedules. No lien means no lien.

[walkthaplank]

thanks for the suggestion, i will amend the schedules, but someone told me that just by signing the loan docs, whether ford did the paperwork or not that they can still repo the car after discharge even though i have the title, so as lucky as i want to feel, i am still a bit unsure of how to react.

THAT would be the luckiest financial thing I have ever had though...

Talk to your attorney, but like others have said, no lien is no lien. The repo company must prove that they have a right to repossess (lien on title), if they have no lien and they attempt to repo they have just committed grand theft auto. It is hard for them to dispute when you are holding a clear title.

[freedom7]

well, went to the dmv, got my title, no lien listed, have it in hand. My next hurdle will be if Ford files something in our case i guess.

It would be funny for the repo man to take the car after discharge and then try to explain that one away though...

holding out hope that this is all true...

[freedom7]

spoke to a local attorney(not a bankruptcy expert, but someone who deals in land liens and real estate liens) and he says that Ford botched this one good, they failed to perfect their lien within the allotted time frame and now, I am to mark the property as exempt on my statement of intentions, and that I don't have to file any motion to avoid lien, since there is not one listed on my title.


WHat do you guys think?

[music12]

nice! as long as your state doesn't have some unusual law that says that a lien is perfected even if not filed, it's an unsecured debt.

[freedom7]

A little update....

Ford Credit filed a claim in the case showing an electronic lien that was filed in PA in 2008 on a loan that was done in 2006. I had already transferred to NJ and retitled the car here at that point. Ford had an attorney file an appearance and request for service at our 341, and in speaking with him, he thinks they still have rights to the car.

What do you all think?
pro se debtor, so no attorney to check with...
next step may be motion to determine secured interest in property