Can you CHECK OVER my sched j expenses?

[mamaluv]

I don't think $200/month is too much at all. National standards for apparel & services for a family of 4 is $244. I used the standard for 2 and was not questioned about it at all.

[jribe]

i live in Nor Cal too - hello neighbor! lol

Put more for Gas and Electric. Maybe $75 for gas and $175 for electric.
Local telephone: $40 - you didn't include long distance though (include it with a plan)
I'm assuming you travel in the SF Bay Area for work; your gas expense may be higher? I used to spend $150/month with a Honda Accord traveling 30 miles each way.. Just may want to check that one.
Leave the TV- could be viewed as a luxury. Up the home maintence (really only spend 1200 a year?) maybe $150-200 a month?
Don't count on recreation being included. We all have those expenses; however they can be viewed as a luxury. Was looking at the eastern bk court website but can't find anything specific.
Anyway- just adjust some of the figures like i mentioned and you should be fine..

Hi there!

I am in desparate need of figuring this stuff out. I am under median income but have a super-low mortgage payment for my area (northern ca).

Does this look reasonable? This includes a projected new car payment (honda accord) and the auto insurance, including a 1995 corolla owned outright.

how does food, clothes, etc. look?

I have a lot of questions about this but will hold off for comments

THANKS! THANKS!!

Average Monthly Household Living Expenses
Report for:
Dated:
Family of 4 (2 5-yr-old children)


Expense Item Amount Per Period Expense Period Monthly Amount
1st mortgage: 1,075.00
2nd mortgage: 346.00
3rd mortgage: 100.00
Property tax 283.33
Electricity: 100.00
Natural gas: 10.00
Firewood: 2.00
Water, Sewer, Garbage: 100
Local Telephone: 20.00
Long distance phone?? wife is from overseas family
Cell phone: 100.00
Cable/satellite television: 40.00 can upgrade??
Internet: 40.00
Home Maintenance: 100.00
Food: 800.00 (can i put more without alarm? i do spend more)
Household items (non-food items): 30.00
Hygiene supplies (tooth paste, toilet paper, etc.): 20.00
Clothing: 200.00
Laundromat, detergent, softener, etc.: 20.00
Average medical and dental expenses: 75.00
Prescriptions and "over the counter" medications: 30.00
Magazines, periodicals & newspapers: 10.00
Recreation & entertainment: 200.00 (two gym memberships=160, plus my kids do activities costing 100 at least-- but 260 seems like too much?)
Presents for holidays, birthdays, etc.: 50.00
Life insurance (if not deducted from paycheck): 100.00
Auto Insurance: 200.00
Gasoline: 160.00
Tires: 40.00
Auto repairs: 100.00
Vehicle maintenance: 20.00
Tolls: 5.00 Per month 5.00
Parking: 20.00
Smog check: 4.17
Vehicle tax & registration: 10.83
Vehicle installments: 480.00
Child care: 120.00
Fines: 7.50
Cosmetics: 20.00
Haircuts: 20.00
Work lunches: 60.00
Postage: 3.00
Pet food/supplies: 20.00

TOTAL
Total living expenses 4,981.83


I am really depending on you guys!

Thanks,

MMP

[Moneypenny]

thanks!! things are coming into clearer focus now. i am underestimating a lot.

i wonder why the recreation is a category in these schedules if it is a luxury. i agree that it does seem like a luxury but i wonder why it is included (by a nor cal law firm for instance).

i have a 30 mile commute i am guessing. so my 160 may be right. there is also my wifes car so i will guess is another 80, which makes a difference.

thanks so much!!

[music12]

not every recreation is a luxury. the assumption is that you would go insane if you can't recreate from time to time. so this kind of recreation is a necessity. for a family of 4, something like $100-$200 is not excessive. it hardly covers going to the movies a couple times...

[Moneypenny]

thanks. any further thoughts on the violin lessons? and, just a little question here music12, are you speaking out of experience on the boards here plus your own, or are you more reasoning out of your own sensibility. I agree with everything you say about recreation, but does the court?

MMP

[pcn]

There is so much there that seems subjective - like "work lunches". I pack a lunch to save money, but apparently eating out at Applebee's is an acceptable alternative. So there is $150/mo extra expense one could claim if they wanted to. Maybe. If you have the right trustee. On the right day of the week. And those pesky plantets all line up...

[Moneypenny]

yes that is why i want to be reasonable: but according to the courts as much as we can know.

that is also why i was mis-interpreted or else stated myself unwisely. i am trying to adjust my reasoning to the court. To me, 200 or 250 on clothes for a family of 4 is totally unreasonable, but apparently the courts think not. While to me $200 to take care of the body's need for physical conditioning for a family of 4 is not only perfectly reasonable, but not even close to enough. I consider this latter deeply connected to the "Life" human right of "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness." But I guess the courts do not, while having new clothes is every bankruptee's right.

I am not trying to be dishonest but just trying to adapt to the value system here, and all your replies are very very helpful.

thanks,

MMP

[OhioFiler]

yes that is why i want to be reasonable: but according to the courts as much as we can know.

that is also why i was mis-interpreted or else stated myself unwisely. i am trying to adjust my reasoning to the court. To me, 200 or 250 on clothes for a family of 4 is totally unreasonable, but apparently the courts think not. While to me $200 to take care of the body's need for physical conditioning for a family of 4 is not only perfectly reasonable, but not even close to enough. I consider this latter deeply connected to the "Life" human right of "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness." But I guess the courts do not, while having new clothes is every bankruptee's right.

I am not trying to be dishonest but just trying to adapt to the value system here, and all your replies are very very helpful.

thanks,

MMP

Gym membership does not qualify as an unalienable right.

[Moneypenny]

yes, that is exactly what i was saying, that taking care of your body so that you can have health does not qualify, while new clothes and cellphones do qualify.

anyway that is moot: i need to know only what does fly. funny thing is i did read something here or somewhere about gym membership as an expense, but i dont remember what the point was about that.

MMP

[jribe]

just as an add in; when someone writes a post or comments- it doesn't mean it's necessarily fact.

you need to take that in to account- always.

Unless they're an attorney and live in the same state as you; there's always going to be differences in opinion on each circumstance.

[music12]

thanks. any further thoughts on the violin lessons? and, just a little question here music12, are you speaking out of experience on the boards here plus your own, or are you more reasoning out of your own sensibility. I agree with everything you say about recreation, but does the court?

MMP

on this, it's just how i feel about the issue, which comes from having read some bk literature and posts here. i don't have a legal authority to cite that supports my position, though i suspect if you were to look for some you'd find it.

about recreation, it's right on the form, right? so i was just explaining why i think that would be the case.

[pcn]

Our gym memberships are included in our means test, as recommended by our atty. I will try to remember to update here when we file, as to how that goes...

[Moneypenny]

how much is your gym memberships, for a spousal pair i assume?

and thanks music... i will definitely breach this subject with attorney when i get one.

thanks, MMP

[justplaintired]

I think you kids violin lesson just might fly, especially if this is something not offered thru the schools.

Gym membership I just don't know. I would definitely ask your attorney before you include that in your petition.

Up the gas and electric, easiest way to get that right is add a years bills and divide it into 12 months, this will give you the total.

Also if you are looking at car repairs, new tires, figure what it will cost and divide it all into 12 months, don't forget oil changes..... same with car insurance.

Almost anything you spend over the year. For instance include kids bday and xmas in gifts. I mean what they really want is if you budget you money, you would technically be saving how much a month to give you kids these things.

School registration if you have to pay that, school supplies for the kids, uniforms if they have to wear uniforms. We took the expense of my son being in band and divided it into 12 months. Outfits for band. Alot is acceptable when it's for the kids.

Long distance is also acceptable, and I don't believe they will look down on $50 a month for that. Our phone bill was $70 a month when we filed, it was not even brought up so it wasn't a problem. We had a higher electric and gas bill avg, not a problem with the trustee. Cell phone was acceptable at $70 a month. School lunches for the kids was also acceptable at $80 a month. 2 kids.

If you figure each of you get a hair cut every other month and it cost $20 a piece. 20x6=120, 120x4=480, now divide the 480 by 12 months which gives you $40 a month. See? Do everything that way. I made the mistake in the beginning of not doing it that way.

Also I worried myself sick about this and when I sent it over to the attorney the paralegal went thru and tweaked it. So all that time I spent working all that out, the paralegal fixed it so to speak. So don't get to worried, honestly your attorney will advise you if something you have on there is either too high or too low.

[music12]

another thought as to violin lessons: i think you get to give your kids *something* extracurricular. for you it seems to be violin lessons, but if that turns into dance lessons or art lessons or whatever, still fine i think. it would be totally unreasonable to say that it's possible to bring up kids these days without giving them anything outside of school.