Considering filing for BK but no papertrail...

[2manybills]

You should be able to qualify and prove your expenses.

When they attach a checking account, it is a one time hit and they get pretty much whatever is there. My concern for real property is not right now today, but it lasts for 10 years, and who knows that tomorrow brings where you might want to buy property. And another thing is that the interest is compound in California, so you will be paying interest on interest. (Sounds like one of the cc companies, right!)

If you can prove some expenses to get yourself under the median like another poster here said, you should be able to file. It's a shame just for this one debt, but I guess it's all relative compared to your income.

[socal1105]

You should be able to qualify and prove your expenses.

When they attach a checking account, it is a one time hit and they get pretty much whatever is there. My concern for real property is not right now today, but it lasts for 10 years, and who knows that tomorrow brings where you might want to buy property. And another thing is that the interest is compound in California, so you will be paying interest on interest. (Sounds like one of the cc companies, right!)

If you can prove some expenses to get yourself under the median like another poster here said, you should be able to file. It's a shame just for this one debt, but I guess it's all relative compared to your income.

Unfortunately proving my expenses is the hard part. And correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a BK7 discharge this default judgment entirely? And if so, then he wouldn't be able to place a levy or lien against me at all, correct? Oh boy, now you got me worried....

[2manybills]

Yes a BK would discharge the judgment.

The median income for CA is $49182. Have you done the nolo test on line or the means test posted by another one of the folks here.

You must be making quite a bit if you are showing $500 a month left over. It sounds like you might be missing something.

[socal1105]

Yes a BK would discharge the judgment.

The median income for CA is $49182. Have you done the nolo test on line or the means test posted by another one of the folks here.

You must be making quite a bit if you are showing $500 a month left over. It sounds like you might be missing something.

yes, I did the nolo test from legalconsumer.com (at least I'm pretty sure that was the nolo test). It's the very long test that's like doing your tax returns, right? If it is, then yes, I am over it... my last 6 month average calculates to $49,920 (just a hair shy). But more importantly, I've read that it's the disposable income portion that they really look at. And based on that test and using the standard deductions, I have a $500 per month disposable income every month. I guess this is the one time I wish I had a car loan. Maybe I can go and buy a car with super high interest rates and wait 6 months to file... I wonder???

[2manybills]

Yes that's the test. You included Federal Taxes, health insurance all of that correct.

This is the link to the member that did the means test:

http://www.johnfire.com/meanstest/wizard.php

His completes everything for you. I'd hate to see you get into some big car payment. It's a tough spot.

[socal1105]

Yes that's the test. You included Federal Taxes, health insurance all of that correct.

This is the link to the member that did the means test:

http://www.johnfire.com/meanstest/wizard.php

His completes everything for you. I'd hate to see you get into some big car payment. It's a tough spot.

the legalconsumer.com nolo test is very similar to johnfire.com test. However, I noticed on JohnFire.com test, they had a section for a "non-priority unsecured debt", which wasn't on the legalconsumer.com test. As mentioned earlier, I don't have any open credit cards, but I see that personal loan was included.

How would someone go about verifying that they have a personal loan with somebody and how much ground would that have with the Trustee allowing in allowing it or not? Because technically, I owe my mother for her car that I'm driving, but we just never agreed on a payment plan and I can just pay her whatever and whenever. Could my mother and I draw up an agreement to use as verification of a personal loan? Or would that seem too "out of ordinary" to the Trustee considering I've never made a payment to my mother?

Something else that would possibly help my case... thanks 2ManyBills

[2manybills]

Yes you could. You could perfect the loan and make it a secured loan on the vehicle. There is an article on the ************************ by a California attorney. You would then be able to also claim the "vehicle ownership expense" which is $522 a month.

[jadams]

Of course I can't find the references anymore, but there was some talk that at least in several districts they ruled that for means test purposes one can claim the IRS standard for car ownership even if they have a fully paid off car.

Unfortunately $500 a month disposable is a lot. Even if you got the full IRS auto amount, and the trustee allowed everything, you're still going to have enough to fund a 13 (at least $168 or so).

But in that case, your objective would be to find expenses to get the CH 13 payment as low as possible. Otherwise you're pretty darn close to a full payback with $500 a month disposable.

If you're going to try and reduce your pay, I would recommend a reduction in hours or duties that looks proportional. (i.e. 25% reduction in pay for 25% less hours). I would think that would pass scrutiny better than your employer cutting your pay and no one else's without cutting work.

If it says you have $500 a month left over -- can you figure out where that $500 is going? Do you really have any money left at the end of the month?

What do you pay each month that you didn't include in your means test? Is it going towards any bills that will be discharged when you file? Are the numbers you used for rent and food on the test inaccurate?

Maybe if you try and track down where that money goes it will turn up an expense that you forgot about. Or at least in the process of writing all this down you'll figure out where the problem areas are (i.e. your food and utility expenses are higher than IRS standard) and you'll know what items you're going to have to work on getting more proof of.

2manybills mentions putting a lien on the car -- that's problematic because liens that aren't perfected within so many days of the loan (especially to a family member shortly before a BK filing) can be avoided by the trustee.

What about expenses that you should/could have, but don't due to debt service? Clothing? Entertainment? Health Care you've been avoiding?

[2manybills]

Unfortunately, California is one of those states that does not allow the ownership expense unless you have a car payment left. The attorney's article on the ************************ cites that and says how unfair it is that someone in California can use the car ownership expense even if they just have one car payment left where someone that paid their car off the month before can't use it. I know Mass. allows you to use it either way.

You might want to read the article, because she talks about perfecting the loan and what is required to do that in the California Courts.

[socal1105]

Unfortunately, California is one of those states that does not allow the ownership expense unless you have a car payment left. The attorney's article on the ************************ cites that and says how unfair it is that someone in California can use the car ownership expense even if they just have one car payment left where someone that paid their car off the month before can't use it. I know Mass. allows you to use it either way.

You might want to read the article, because she talks about perfecting the loan and what is required to do that in the California Courts.

I think you just made my day... I did find an article at ************************ about perfecting a secure loan. OMG... I think this is the break I've been looking for.

So let me get this straight... my mom can "sell" me her car, and place a lien on title stating that she has a secured interest in the car, get it recorded with the DMV and I'll be the proud owner of a car with a perfect loan to my mom? If that's the case, then I think you guys have answered my prayers.

But on the flip side, wouldn't the Trustee frown on me purchasing a car right before filing BK? Would that, in turn, just present a whole new obstacle for me?

[socal1105]

BTW... you guys are all awesome. Thank you all for helping me sort this out and hopefully end this nightmare.

[2manybills]

Not if you need the car for transportation to work. Also, the article says that the loan can be used to pay for legal fees for your bankruptcy or something. It was a very interesting article for sure.

[socal1105]

hmm... must not have been the same article then, because the one I read only talked about perfecting a security interest.

http://www.************************/...rity-interest/

But I did see another article that did mention that they just allowed post-petition attorney fees but only as an unsecured claim.

http://www.************************/...secured-claim/

Definitely lots of great articles... I know what I'll be doing for the rest of the day

[socal1105]

BTW, is it ok if I ask how much your Attorney fees were 2manybills? And what other Attorneys in our area are charging?

[2manybills]

Those a good articles, but here is one from her website that will help too:

http://www.moranlaw.net/car-ownership.htm