Home from my 341.....Eh
So, first let me say that the meeting in itself was painless. I'll get to my disappointment in a minute. We were sitting there in front of the trustee for MAYBE 2 minutes and were asked the following:
Did you read the green pamphlet provided to you when you sat down (BK rights)?
Do you have personal knowledge of the information contained in your BK petitions?
Did you list all of your assets?
Did you list everyone you owe money to?
Do you have any errors or omissions you would like to report now?
Do you owe any domestic support obligations such as child/spousal support or alimony?
Did you read and sign your petitions?
Is the social security # in your schedules and on the card in front of me the original # issued by the SSA?
The house on such and such street that you own - it has a balance of 447K, correct?
Are these your most current tax returns that you supplied to my office?
I have no further questions and let the record show that I am returning your license and social security card and your taxes to you.
So PRIOR to that - we sat for about 1.5 hours and listened to the above be asked of tons of people. Let me tell you that EVERY SINGLE filer who had an attorney had incorrect paperwork of some sort and was continued to July 15. The trustee was hard on the attys, not forgiving at all. One couple who spoke Spanish, he asked them through the interpreter if they knew why they were there and they said no, and he continued the case and told the atty to brief his client better next time. Ouch. Some had incorrect exemptions, some had no dates on stuff, some had dependents listed on taxes that were not on the means or vice versa. I watched as EACH, seriously, client with an atty was continued. Only one of the pro se's was, for not having an SS card with him. Maybe he was more apt to POINT OUT the incorrect forms and stuff on represented filers? But I don't know why they would be. There were a TON of pro se filers, more so than represented. No creditors showed up at all.
He was courteous to everyone, did not "grill" anyone, only the attys got grilled and put on the spot. Except the one pro se before us that kept asking legal questions, the trustee told him three times to retain an atty if he had those types of questions and he would not be answering. That was the only time I would even think he was short or rude, but considering the fact that he told him twice before not to ask legal questions I think it was warranted on the TTs part.
So - even though it was painless, it was not a good thing for us today.
The UST was there <sigh> he had three files to talk to, two did not show up and got continued to 7/15 and there was us.
Before we even got called up for our 341, probably like an hour before, the atty from the USTs office/representative for the UST showed up to "talk" to us. He did not end up attending our 341, but he asked us if we could talk to him outside, so we did. He basically told us that he totally understood why we were filing, and did not feel it was true abuse, but that he had no choice but to file a presumption of abuse because at face value they were not accepting my student loans as a special circumstance as part of the means test/or expenses. He said without them it looks like you have 3K excess income, so he has to file the presumption. I understood what he was saying, and he was VERY nice and talked to us for about 30 minutes and told us that he is not there to make this difficult, but "numbers are numbers and you guys make too much money". He showed us spreadsheets and all sorts of documents they had run with our numbers, and he said "We have spent a week on this, everyone in the office has looked at it to try to help you". So I said "Ok so you file the presumption and you motion to dismiss - not convert right?" and he said "No, we should be able to convert" and I said "How, the debt level for entering a Ch 13 is 336K and I have over that" and he said and I quote "I am pretty sure the eligible level for Ch 13 is higher than 336K, isn't it?"
He is asking ME? Ummmmm, what? The UST is standing in front of me and does not know the code? What in the world?!!!! So he said he would go back to the office and look it up and call me. He doesn't really need to, I know that it is 336K or else I would have done a 13. I know it looks like we make too much money. I told him I was 99.9% sure of my info, but lets say I am right and it IS 336K, I cannot convert, then what? And he said "Well, you could accept the motion to dismiss or you could try and 11 - but that is expensive and I have never seen a pro se one even attempted, but that is cause it is usually businesses that file them". And I said "Ok, so if I wanted to rebut the motion to dismiss and push the special circumstance of the student loans being included in CH 7 expenses/means as I have NO other option than to pay them the way the laws are now - I can do that right?" and he said "Well you can try - but it really seems like you have the means to pay" and I said "How do you figure - means to pay what? The CCs - not if we pay the SLs too - or vice versa I will get sued by someone here pretty quick. Look at my expenses, someone is going to end up not being paid". And he just kept flipping through our paperwork and he said "I know what you mean - but I just wanted to pull you out here to tell you that this is what was gonna happen" (and I pretty much knew that it was gonna happen based on discussions here).
So I said "ok well thank you - and please get back to me on the level of eligibility for 13" and he said "I will, I will call you on the # here, and I am thinking a zero point Ch 13 plan, where you pay the SLs outside of the plan, and you have a zero CH 13 payment for 5 years". Which to me sounds NO DIFFERENT than a Ch 7 and I told him so, and he said "it is a really complicated system, but you seem like you understand it and you did all of your paperwork like it was an attorney's office filling it out".
And to that I responded "I am not sure if that is a complement or not, judging by what is going on in there with the attys!!"
And we all laughed and we thanked him, he gave us his card and told us he really wished us good luck, this is an extremely tough case because of the SL debt level, and he wished that one of us was not working because that would make the presumption go away. (what the? Do I quit my job?!! Um, no).
I know I cannot file a 13 unless I am just on the wrong planet here.
So, ultimately, the info we gained today was not in our favor and we have a lot of discussing to do, but at least everyone was nice and helpful! No one at any time made us feel like they did not have compassion for our situation.
Did you read the green pamphlet provided to you when you sat down (BK rights)?
Do you have personal knowledge of the information contained in your BK petitions?
Did you list all of your assets?
Did you list everyone you owe money to?
Do you have any errors or omissions you would like to report now?
Do you owe any domestic support obligations such as child/spousal support or alimony?
Did you read and sign your petitions?
Is the social security # in your schedules and on the card in front of me the original # issued by the SSA?
The house on such and such street that you own - it has a balance of 447K, correct?
Are these your most current tax returns that you supplied to my office?
I have no further questions and let the record show that I am returning your license and social security card and your taxes to you.
So PRIOR to that - we sat for about 1.5 hours and listened to the above be asked of tons of people. Let me tell you that EVERY SINGLE filer who had an attorney had incorrect paperwork of some sort and was continued to July 15. The trustee was hard on the attys, not forgiving at all. One couple who spoke Spanish, he asked them through the interpreter if they knew why they were there and they said no, and he continued the case and told the atty to brief his client better next time. Ouch. Some had incorrect exemptions, some had no dates on stuff, some had dependents listed on taxes that were not on the means or vice versa. I watched as EACH, seriously, client with an atty was continued. Only one of the pro se's was, for not having an SS card with him. Maybe he was more apt to POINT OUT the incorrect forms and stuff on represented filers? But I don't know why they would be. There were a TON of pro se filers, more so than represented. No creditors showed up at all.
He was courteous to everyone, did not "grill" anyone, only the attys got grilled and put on the spot. Except the one pro se before us that kept asking legal questions, the trustee told him three times to retain an atty if he had those types of questions and he would not be answering. That was the only time I would even think he was short or rude, but considering the fact that he told him twice before not to ask legal questions I think it was warranted on the TTs part.
So - even though it was painless, it was not a good thing for us today.
The UST was there <sigh> he had three files to talk to, two did not show up and got continued to 7/15 and there was us.
Before we even got called up for our 341, probably like an hour before, the atty from the USTs office/representative for the UST showed up to "talk" to us. He did not end up attending our 341, but he asked us if we could talk to him outside, so we did. He basically told us that he totally understood why we were filing, and did not feel it was true abuse, but that he had no choice but to file a presumption of abuse because at face value they were not accepting my student loans as a special circumstance as part of the means test/or expenses. He said without them it looks like you have 3K excess income, so he has to file the presumption. I understood what he was saying, and he was VERY nice and talked to us for about 30 minutes and told us that he is not there to make this difficult, but "numbers are numbers and you guys make too much money". He showed us spreadsheets and all sorts of documents they had run with our numbers, and he said "We have spent a week on this, everyone in the office has looked at it to try to help you". So I said "Ok so you file the presumption and you motion to dismiss - not convert right?" and he said "No, we should be able to convert" and I said "How, the debt level for entering a Ch 13 is 336K and I have over that" and he said and I quote "I am pretty sure the eligible level for Ch 13 is higher than 336K, isn't it?"
He is asking ME? Ummmmm, what? The UST is standing in front of me and does not know the code? What in the world?!!!! So he said he would go back to the office and look it up and call me. He doesn't really need to, I know that it is 336K or else I would have done a 13. I know it looks like we make too much money. I told him I was 99.9% sure of my info, but lets say I am right and it IS 336K, I cannot convert, then what? And he said "Well, you could accept the motion to dismiss or you could try and 11 - but that is expensive and I have never seen a pro se one even attempted, but that is cause it is usually businesses that file them". And I said "Ok, so if I wanted to rebut the motion to dismiss and push the special circumstance of the student loans being included in CH 7 expenses/means as I have NO other option than to pay them the way the laws are now - I can do that right?" and he said "Well you can try - but it really seems like you have the means to pay" and I said "How do you figure - means to pay what? The CCs - not if we pay the SLs too - or vice versa I will get sued by someone here pretty quick. Look at my expenses, someone is going to end up not being paid". And he just kept flipping through our paperwork and he said "I know what you mean - but I just wanted to pull you out here to tell you that this is what was gonna happen" (and I pretty much knew that it was gonna happen based on discussions here).
So I said "ok well thank you - and please get back to me on the level of eligibility for 13" and he said "I will, I will call you on the # here, and I am thinking a zero point Ch 13 plan, where you pay the SLs outside of the plan, and you have a zero CH 13 payment for 5 years". Which to me sounds NO DIFFERENT than a Ch 7 and I told him so, and he said "it is a really complicated system, but you seem like you understand it and you did all of your paperwork like it was an attorney's office filling it out".
And to that I responded "I am not sure if that is a complement or not, judging by what is going on in there with the attys!!"
And we all laughed and we thanked him, he gave us his card and told us he really wished us good luck, this is an extremely tough case because of the SL debt level, and he wished that one of us was not working because that would make the presumption go away. (what the? Do I quit my job?!! Um, no). I know I cannot file a 13 unless I am just on the wrong planet here.
So, ultimately, the info we gained today was not in our favor and we have a lot of discussing to do, but at least everyone was nice and helpful! No one at any time made us feel like they did not have compassion for our situation.
Bankruptcy Wizard
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