Question about a Court Document

[BankruptIL]

I have a question I have my 341 meeting tomorrow, and decided to take a quick look at pacer. I noticed our reaffirmation agreement filed that we signed.

Few days after another document was filed. I opened it up and it in Bold ORDER FINDING UNDUE HARDSHIP PRESUMPTION REBUTTED and it was signed by US BK Judge stating presumption of undue hardship has been rebutted.

Now I am new to this, I am assuming this is a good thing right? I think it means financial hardship proven false. Sorry for the noob question but search didn't bring anything up. I just know I cant sleep not knowing a day before our meeting.

[JRScott]

Your lawyer rebutted hardship presumption. A hardship presumption is something that happens when you reaffirm debt. It is normally an automatic process and shouldn't cause you any problems. I'm pretty sure its good though

[AngelinaCat]

Without seeing your document and knowing more of your situation, it looks like some type of argument that your claim of paying XYZ debt would prove a hardship, has been reviewed, and disallowed, meaning that whatever it is will survive the BK and you will be responsible.

If you can tell us more, that will help. Just for review: court-ordered judgments such as alimony, child support, criminal restitution, most student loans, are non-dischargable--though some can be mitigated through the 'hardship' clause.

Good luck to you~~

[BankruptIL]

Thanks for the quick response guys, it is just reaffirming 1 of our 2 cars. We plan on reaffirming both cars. This one is for our 07 Ford

Do you need more information?

[JRScott]

I'm pretty sure its okay could you copy and paste what the document says redacting all personal information from it here

[AngelinaCat]

I see JR got in ahead of me, and we are both 180 degrees opposite from each other in our opinions. Frankly, I don't know.

I suggest letting some of the other more knowledgeable Moderators come in and off their opinions.

BankruptIL, your case is not going to 'crass and burn tonight'. There will be more of these hurdles to cross, and all kinds of questions. Meanwhile, the best favor you can do for yourself and your spouse, is to get a nice glass of wine for the two of you, and go to bed, and just hug each other. All of this Krapp, too will pass.

Goodnight and God Bless you on your 341 tomorrow.

[AngelinaCat]

Thanks for the quick response guys, it is just reaffirming 1 of our 2 cars. We plan on reaffirming both cars. This one is for our 07 Ford

Do you need more information?

You should be okay on both cars as long as you can make the payments. I don't understand why you got the documentation you did. We, 'Hub and I, reaffirmed a car loan, and an overdraft loan, with our CU and had none of the paperwork you describe come to us.

On this, I really think you are okay. Just explain to the trustee, if you have to, what you are planning to do. Good luck.

NOW: go get that glass of wine and go to bed. You have the First Day of your NEW Start in life tomorrow.

Good luck and God Bless. Post us tomorrow please. Thanks

[BankruptIL]

Hopefully this helps


I tried attaching but I tried 3 different formats keeping getting errors.

But here is what is typed

Court Info Here and misc info Chapter 7

ORDER FINDING UNDUE HARDSHIP PRESUMPTION REBUTTED

On June 4th, 2009, a Reaffirmation Agreement with Ford Motor Credit Co, docket entry #10, was filed with the court. IT IS HEREBY ORDERED that

The presumption of undue hardship has been rebutted.

Dated 6/9/2009 Entered by : Its signed by the judge here from the US BK Court

[JRScott]

I'm pretty sure that means that the judge did not find any undue hardship arising from the reaffirmation which means all is good.

[BankruptIL]

Thats JRScott & Cat, I cannot tell you how awesome people like you are, glad I really found this forum, answered so many questions.

Now, I think I can try and get a good nights sleep for tomorrow's meeting.

[AngelinaCat]

ORDER FINDING UNDUE HARDSHIP PRESUMPTION REBUTTED
On June 4th, 2009, a Reaffirmation Agreement with Ford Motor Credit Co, docket entry #10, was filed with the court. IT IS HEREBY ORDERED that
The presumption of undue hardship has been rebutted.
Dated 6/9/2009 Entered by : Its signed by the judge here from the US BK Court

From this it looks like someone somewhere along the line tried to make the argument that reaffirming the agreement for the Ford, therefore making the payments for said vehicle, would be an 'undue hardship', and after the court reviewed your paperwork, disallowed that claim.

Now, having said that, I have to say that when 'Hub and I reaffirmed our car and overdraft loan with our CU, here is the dynamic: We live in Florida. The Credit Union is located in Dayton, Ohio. It would be much simpler if we could drive five miles into town and deal with it locally, but no. 'Hub has been with this CU for more than 40 years and wanted to stay with it, having always gotten great service.

Once we signed our paperwork here in Florida, it had to go to the CU in Dayton so they could present the paperwork to THEIR judge in Dayton, for HIM to approve or deny. It was approved. But we had a couple of *interesting* weeks, sweating it out.

I should add that we never saw any of this paperwork regarding our loans with the CU appear in our case documents on PACER.

So where this Ford loan is located may well be a factor.

[eddiep]

good luck tomorrow!

[AngelinaCat]

Thats JRScott & Cat, I cannot tell you how awesome people like you are, glad I really found this forum, answered so many questions.

Now, I think I can try and get a good nights sleep for tomorrow's meeting.

I truly hope you can. I am having a red wine in your name!

I see JR and I are STILL on opposite ends of the spectrum. But that is what makes this forum so helpful. We all have different, though similar experiences as we muddle through this BK process, and we all have our different perceptions as to how things happened. Hopefully as posters read these experiences, they will get a three-dimensional take on the process.

[JRScott]

I suppose it depends on the legal definition of rebutted.

I'm looking at that as rejected, but I"m not sure of the legal definition. No need to worry just answer truthfully at the 341 today, don't panic. I think you'll be okay, at worst your lawyer may need to file a paper proving it isn't a hardship.

(Meaning that the hardship was rejected/rebutted not the actual expense is what I think )

[BankruptIL]

Hey guys, Just a quick update, I had my 341 meeting today and asked my attorney concerning the document. She said it was fine, and it was a good thing. She told me not to worry about it, that it seems to more common this past year.

Just an update, for people, I know myself were very curious how a 341 meeting was. Our trustee was about 15 minutes late, but we were 3rd on the list so wasn't bad. The second case took a long time but I will go into that a little later.

It was maybe 3 or 4 minutes top for my wife and I for our meeting. We handed him our social security card and driver's licenses, which we had in our hands before we walked in.

Our attorney just told us soon as we walked into the room to hand it to him before he asked. Which I am not sure if she just knew, but he really appreciated it and made a comment and a sincere thank you. So it started off on the right foot.

We went through a series of questions which were very basic. The only think that came up, was our house we were going to reaffirm. My dad and my wife are on the house and I am not. The paper work was filed out incorrectly by my attorneys office. I got scared for a second because trustee said you cant file it this way. My attorney asked if he needed that amended. This part caught me off guard after he looked at something else about the house, and said something about it being exempt, he said "I really don't care, leave the paper work as is, its fine" After talking with my attorney afterwards, she said they improperly filed saying that they filed something under married couple for the house and should have filed it under something else, but didn't matter because the trustee didn't see any issues. All the trustee wanted was last years tax return. The trustee determined it a no asset case after looking at our case.

Everyone is right it is really easy, I worried really for nothing. 341 is nothing to be scared of if you have everything in order.

My wife and I sat towards the back, not realizing they used the rooms in the back, but we got to hear a lot of cases while we waited. One in particular we heard the US trustee got involved and was sitting there in the trustees room waiting for him. My wife and I thought she was a creditor. Anyway the case from what we heard the couple ran up $200,000 of credit card debit less than 18 months, owned 5 cars, and had a house in London. After the trustee asked a few questions, the US attorney started asking questions and it seemed to get kind of tense in there. Apparently the couple sold a few of the cars before the hearing and the US Trustee wanted to know where money was from the sales, at this point the couple asked if they could shut the door, saying they were having a hard time hearing (it was crowded). So I didnt get to her the rest of it but I imagine it didn't go well.

Anyway thanks for everyones help. We just need to wait for my discharge now.