Couple of questions...

[Jupiter8]

Since theres been a lot controversy about whether unemployment counts toward the median, would it be wise to stop unemployment checks (from the spouse for a few months) to fall under the median to file a chapter 7?

Is social security included in the means test? Ive had conflicting answers for this question as well.

Also, can someone explain to me schedule I and J forms? Are they required for both chap7 and 13? What are all teh necessary forms req for a 7?

Thanks.

[keepmine]

SS is exempt from means testing but, the means test is just step one. You must fill out I and J {income and expenses} in order to get to your disposable income. Fill this out and see where you are. You may not have the DI to fund a 13 so stopping UE may not be necessary.

http://www.legalconsumer.com/bankruptcy/means-test/index.php

[TXFowlerfan]

My unemployment was included

for both the means test and our schedules for our monthly "budget"...I'm in TX though...you want to be careful if you decide to stop requesting payments in the event the Trustee looks closely and asks why....

[Jupiter8]

SS is exempt from means testing but, the means test is just step one. You must fill out I and J {income and expenses} in order to get to your disposable income. Fill this out and see where you are. You may not have the DI to fund a 13 so stopping UE may not be necessary.

http://www.legalconsumer.com/bankrup...test/index.php

This is what I am confused about. I thought part 2 of the means test shows you your the disposable income. when i filled it out on that website, the right column listed the results showing me the disposable income. so whats the difference between part 2 of the means test and forms I and J?

[TXFowlerfan]

means test #s vs Schedule I #s...

the means test calculations are based on your avg income over the last six months and allowable expense to arrive at your disposable income - if DI is over about $160-that when you may have to consider ch 13--- the Schedule I & J are kind of an estimated budget based on your current $$ and expenses...still need to jive with eachother, but if your income has steadily dropped over the last 6 month, your schedule I (monthly budget) will most likely be much less or even in the negative compared to your means test results...hope this helps...

[Jupiter8]

the means test calculations are based on your avg income over the last six months and allowable expense to arrive at your disposable income - if DI is over about $160-that when you may have to consider ch 13--- the Schedule I & J are kind of an estimated budget based on your current $$ and expenses...still need to jive with eachother, but if your income has steadily dropped over the last 6 month, your schedule I (monthly budget) will most likely be much less or even in the negative compared to your means test results...hope this helps...

hmm that helps but heer is my main concern then. Our schedule I will actually be higher than the means test because social security is listed on the schedule I form.

The problem is we are right now a bit above the median, but part 2 of the means test shows that we have about -$101 in disposable income so we qualify for a 7. However, if we fill out schedule i, which includes social secuirty, we would have higher disposable income and probably wouldnt qualify for a 7.

[gymbo]

I haven't been on the forum very much lately - and I'm not aware of the controversy, but I can tell you with certainty that in our case (filed in March) unemployment DID count toward the median income.

[keepmine]

You really need to get yourself to an attorney. Most give free or lowcost initial consultations. Speak with a few and see what they suggest.
You need to be able to fund a Chapter 13 and I believe the current amount of DI is $187/month.

[optimistic1]

There really is no controversy, from legalconsumer.com

What's this? (From Congressional Committee Report): "Unemployment compensation is given special treatment. Because the federal government provides funding for state unemployment compensation under the Social Security Act, there may be a dispute about whether unemployment compensation is a "benefit received under the Social Security Act." The forms take no position on the merits of this argument, but give debtors the option of reporting unemployment compensation separately from the CMI calculation. This separate reporting allows parties in interest to determine the materiality of an exclusion of unemployment compensation and to challenge it. " In plain English this means, report it separately. It may not affect the result of the test. If it does, it will be a "material" issue that the debtor may want to assert.)

Each district may rule different on this case, but the fact of the matter is, according to this congressional report, that it does not get factored into the CMI

[music12]

see

http://west.thomson.com/practice/bankruptcy/newsletter/2008/12/03/default.aspx

[optimistic1]

see

http://west.thomson.com/practice/ban...3/default.aspx

That was just one ruling by a particular court, so unless the OP is filing in that court would that ruling stick. Other courts may rule differently.

[Jupiter8]

So this morning, I called about 10 law offices around the area. Out of the 10, nine counted unemployment in the means test.

Does anyone know how social security is counted in the schedule I form? the means test shows that we have negative disposable income but it doesnt count ss. But since shedule I includes ss, we would probably end up with more than the allowable disposable income for a 7? Has anyone seen this before?

[optimistic1]

The reason they do that is because on the actual official means test form from uscourts.gov, it does in fact make you input the unemployment compensation, with the following stipulation.

"However, if you contend that unemployment compensation received by you or your spouse was a benefit under the Social Security Act, do not list the amount of such compensation in Column A or B."

Some consumer bankruptcy lawyers believe that unemployment compensation derives from the Social Security Act and should also be excluded from Current Monthly Income.


Social security payments are excluded from the calculation of income for purposes of the means test. Here is the quotation from the official means test form from uscourts.gov

Do not include any benefits received under the Social Security Act or payments received as a
victim of a war crime, crime against humanity, or as a victim of international or domestic
terrorism.


Check out the official means test form at this link.

http://www.uscourts.gov/rules/Revised_Rules_and_Forms/BK_Form_B22A101105.pdf

[music12]

i agree with optimistic1 that the ruling is just of that particular court. i linked it because it shows the controversy: in some districts it's exempt, in others it's not. based on OP's calling 10 law firms in his/her area, probably he/she is in a district where it's not exempt. if it ends up making a big difference, perhaps the OP should go with the one out of ten that will say it's exempt...

btw, if any of the unemployment is from the extended benefits that were approved by congress recently, my opinion would be that since those are for sure funded by the federal government, they would be exempt even in states where ordinary unemployment isn't exempt. but it's just my opinion. i don't know if there is a court ruling on this.