Household Size - Help!!

[hurtininaz]

I am married and have 50/50 custody of my three daughters. The oldest has recently moved in full time. The younger two still go to both homes. I claim one of the younger two on my taxes each year. My ex husband goes on business trips and vacations and I often take the girls more than my 50% and never give them up on my weeks - I firmly beleive that they are under my roof more than 50% of the time.

What is my household size 3, 4 or 5?

I am so confused, I don't pass the means test at 3 and don't meet the median for 4.

Is this something that can be considered extraordinary circumstances if I don't fit into the neat little box they created to define my life?

[Flamingo]

Your oldest daughter is questionable as you state her move in is recent and has your ex allowed you to claim her this year (2009) as a dependent? Your household size (eliminating your oldest daughter until you check with an attorney on that one) is yourself and the daughter you claim on your taxes. Right now two, possibly 3. What you firmly believe and what shows on your tax returns are two different things. You can't claim a member to your household that is being listed a dependent on someone else's taxes as the person claiming the dependent has the child more than six months out of the year and pays more than half the support for that child or is listed in the child support agreement as being able to claim the child(ren). Two of your children are not showing on your 2008 taxes as dependents.

[hurtininaz]

Last year I claimed one of the daughters that I have 50% of the time. Now I have the oldest 100% and the two younger 50%.

I don't understand how taxes come into play when figuring household size, you don't claim a roommate with the IRS. Its like the law gets twisted to fit the circumstance.

[fyi2]

What about a 18 y/o that has been at home but now the week of filing wants to move??
I still pay medical/phone/expenses/car maintenance, school is starting in the fall and i will be footing that bill and she said she would still like to come over to do laundry and say 1-2nights week.

no longer able to include in household?
I have no intention on commiting fraud, so if this is true (less household number) I will not qualify

[Flamingo]

Last year I claimed one of the daughters that I have 50% of the time. Now I have the oldest 100% and the two younger 50%.

I don't understand how taxes come into play when figuring household size, you don't claim a roommate with the IRS. Its like the law gets twisted to fit the circumstance.

We are talking minors/dependent young adults here, not roomates who may pay rent and are there year round. Taxes don't come into play - IRS guidelines for who qualifies as your dependent and who lives in one house more than the other is what counts. Support agreements can dictate who can claim a child as a dependent. In order for someone to claim a dependent that minor/person must live in their household over 6 months out of the year and the person must provide over 1/2 of the support of the proposed dependent. If someone else claims that minor/person as a dependent, that minor child/person is part of that person's household, not yours. It's really not that difficult. When in doubt, ask your attorney as to what to do for your specific situation.

[bnkrptinva]

I live w/my fiance' who's in school and unemployed at the moment. His 2 children are with us quite a bit, but their mom claims them on taxes because she has health insurance on them. But because they are with us at least 50 percent of the time, and I feed, cloth, give them school lunch money, money for other school things, I was able to say a household of 4. I don't know if there are clear cut guidelines on this, or if it depends on the state or district you are in. Ask your attorney, they would know exactly for your situation & location.

[Taxed]

I believe that this answer can vary depending on where you file. I share custody with my ex (it is basically 50/50), and we trade years for claiming our daughter on our taxes. When I filed, I was able to claim a household size of two, even though my ex claimed her on his 2008 taxes (I claimed her in 2007, and I will do so again in 2009). Based on your information, if your state is similar to mine, you would be able to claim a household size of 4. Whether or not you claim them as an exemption on your taxes isn't as important as where they spend their time, at least in PA. I have heard that some trustees will use a proration method if there is shared custody - so say I have my daughter 1/2 time I would be allowed to increase the allowed median income by 1/2 of the difference between a 1 person and 2 person household. Does that make sense? I'm not sure if there actually are trustees that take this approach, it is simply something I heard.

[hurtininaz]

Thanks for the responses! This forum is so helpful.

I looked up some different government guidelines on household size and found that with my 50% custody I could claim 5 for medicaid, HUD, food stamps....I just can't find information regarding bankruptcy and the means test. It wouldn't make sense for them to allow nothing, I would be over my exemption limits on beds!

It's so frustrating because the girls are expensive, I have them 7 days on, 7 days off and whenever dad feels like he needs a vacation - which is a lot.

The reason I haven't claimed them is to keep the peace and keep us out of court. Until recently, I haven't needed help, no child support is paid and I was okay with that.

[bnkrptinva]

I agree w/what Taxed said, it really probaby depends on your area/district.

Where I am, there was no question about custody, or who claimed who for tax purposes.

My household of 4 comes from my boyfriend and his two children. We legally have no rights as a family, but when it comes to income & expenses, it's very real...and I guess where I am, that's what matters. Trustee didn't blink an eye at it.

Again, check w/your attorney, but I'd be hard pressed to think you could not claim your children in household size. When it comes to your schedules, obviously, those are actual expenses, and in my situation, trustee didn't care I was just a tiny under the median, was more interested in what my schedules said (what kind of dmi I had).

[fyi2]

follow up

What about a 18 y/o that has been at home but now the week of filing wants to move??
I still pay medical/phone/expenses/car maintenance, school is starting in the fall and i will be footing that bill and she said she would still like to come over to do laundry and say 1-2nights week.

no longer able to include in household?
I have no intention on commiting fraud, so if this is true (less household number) I will not qualify

SO, I can claim household member on means test because they have not moved out yet and will have been in the house for the whole 6mo period

I cannot however include them on form "J"

I feel better... now for form J....

[bnkrptinva]

fyi, are you filing w/an attorney? If so ask them for sure. I really think details like these depend on your area (sucks because you'd hope it would be more consistent).

The schedules are supposed to be a "look forward at your current situation). The median/means thing seems to focus on the lookback.

I'm just saying that I don't claim any of the 3 on my taxes as of now as dependents, but I have a paper trail showing I take care of them. In my area, even on the means, they are household members, and most definitely on the schedules anything I've spent/will spend goes into my monthly budget. I will also add, for my area, the attorney dropped our food/household amount on paper, said the trustee would bark. This is where it's so tricky, depends on your area. Is good to have an attorney who knows what's what in your area.

Good luck to you...I feel your pain, before I filed, I had so many questions, and tried to figure out a lot on my own even before I got an attorney. Feels so helpless to think a lot is out of your hand with the outcome.

[hurtininaz]

I haven't hired an attorney yet. I was trying to figure out how far I am from being able to file. I could file now if I could claim all the children I am responsible for. August if I can only claim the one I claim on my taxes.

The one attorney I spoke to said it generally goes back to the divorce decree - which for me was 9 years ago and no longer even remotely resembles my custody situation. She also recommended that I fill out the means test both ways - what is that? Time to interview the next attorney.

[fyi2]

Yes I have an attorney and she said means was ok because she does still live with me but she will be moving out so during process sooo on schedule J she wont be counted as household

I still will be paying a good amount for her survival so I am looking to question #15 to put stuff like her car/food/med...

has anyone else used expenses like these or other #15

[bnkrptinva]

not sure if this helps, but again, it probably depends on your trustee/district, etc. (is why it's good to have an experience attorney, they get to know the trustees, and how they lean on certain issues), but a couple I watched before my turn at the 341, the trustee would not allow a 300 dollar a month payment to their 24 year old daughter who was in college. I gathered because of her age, the trustee was going to object. I wouldn't hold alot of weight on that because I think it very much depends. Unfortunately, there isn't any cut & dry guidelines on a lot of what's allowed.