Need to find some more expenses

[Klesko]

I am going to be pretty close to being able to qualify for BK7 on Sept 1st. We moved out of our house and lowered our budget greatly a few months back but the bad thing is this put us in danger of the means test.

I can manipulate my income because I am a consultant so that makes things easier. However I dont want to lose out on income when I dont have to.

Right now if everything goes according to play my income will be $4,300, with expenses I can claim using several BK forms being $4,400. What I would like is to pad that expense number by several hundred to make sure I dont get pushed into a BK13.

Right now this is what I have which I believe I can claim in BK7 as expenses.

Rent, Health insurance, Life Insurance, Cell Phones, 1 leased car. Using the standard deductions from the BK forms for NC(my state) plus the expenses listed above I came up with that $4,400 number. Note I did not include such things as utilities, storage cost because I dont see that you can claim those.

[jessegirl]

I just wanted to comment to you and let you know that those figures have to be real amounts that you pay. You cannot just "pad" them. You will be questioned on the amounts if the UST steps in... Believe me, if the UST steps everything will be questioned and if you cannot show proof of what you are actually paying and not "padding" you will be dismissed. So please, just make sure they are actual numbers that you are using.

Goodluck.

[Klesko]

I did not mean pad as in fake. Sorry if I expressed that in the wrong way. All of the numbers listed above are hard and provable. I have taken great care in not over estimating numbers.

Ways to increase my expenses some examples I thought about where.

- Give $150 a month to my church with a check
- Give my parents $300 a month for Baby Sitting with a check noted baby sitting on it.
- I know I could go get a second car, but one is we cant afford it right now and two we cant get a loan right now.

(If I started today I can only pay 4 months before filing so not sure if that would be questioned.)

[justbroke]

I don't even like the sound of the words "manipulate" and "pad" when concerning the Means Test. As posted, these expenses must be actual, legitimate, and allowable. If you are close to the limit... hey, you're just close to the limit.

Are you a pro se filer? If not, your lawyer would give you an "expense" sheet to complete which would have the types of things that are "actual, legitimate, and allowable". This does include utilities, such as electricity, water, garbage/trash pickup, cellular phone, internet, etc. What you're "allowed" in a particular class of expenses is dependent on District, Trustee, and to some extent, local rules.

[justbroke]

- Give $150 a month to my church with a check

This is an legitimate, allowable and actual expense. If you aren't already doing this, you may have to prove it.

- Give my parents $300 a month for Baby Sitting with a check noted baby sitting on it.

This is an legitimate, allowable and actual expense. If you aren't already doing this, you will have to prove it. Having a "note" or memo on the check reading "babysitting" means nothing. What I'm saying is, that I can put "babysitting" on any check, but that does not mean that was the purpose of the check. You may need other ways to prove the expense. It's likely that the Trustee won't even question it.

- I know I could go get a second car, but one is we cant afford it right now and two we cant get a loan right now.

This may not be an allowable expense. Generally, it's one car per debtor/spouse.

(If I started today I can only pay 4 months before filing so not sure if that would be questioned.)

The key is, you may be questioned on some expenses, but you may not be. Generally, for childcare and charitable contributions (money given to your church), the Trustee quickly, easily and most certainly reconciles this against your prior tax returns. This doesn't mean that they will catch that you just started doing this. If you itemize on your taxes (Schedule A), it will be apparent to them that this is a new expense and you may be questioned. Similarly for childcare expenses ($300/month to parents), they may see that it's new and see no corresponding credits on your tax returns.

[Klesko]

This is an legitimate, allowable and actual expense. If you aren't already doing this, you will have to prove it.

This is an legitimate, allowable and actual expense. If you aren't already doing this, you will have to prove it. Having a "note" or memo on the check reading "babysitting" means nothing. What I'm saying is, that I can put "babysitting" on any check, but that does not mean that was the purpose of the check. You may need other ways to prove the expense. It's likely that the Trustee won't even question it.

This may not be an allowable expense. Generally, it's one car per debtor/spouse.

The key is, you may be questioned on some expenses, but you may not be. Generally, for childcare and charitable contributions (money given to your church), the Trustee quickly, easily and most certainly reconciles this against your prior tax returns. This doesn't mean that they will catch that you just started doing this. If you itemize on your taxes (Schedule A), it will be apparent to them that this is a new expense and you may be questioned. Similarly for childcare expenses ($300/month to parents), they may see that it's new and see no corresponding credits on your tax returns.

The church thing would be new. Would canceled checks from our church be enough?

The day care would not. We paid $700 a month in 2008 and claimed so on our taxes this year. My wife quit working in march this year and and so only paid until about mid march then nothing. I am not sure they would question a gap of none in april though.

Me and my wife are filing joint so two debtors the car would work but like I said we really dont have the extra cash to buy one out right and cannot get a loan because of our credit.

[justbroke]

The church thing would be new. Would canceled checks from our church be enough?

Reflecting back, they may not even question it. So long as it's less than 10% of your income (which it appears to be). However, in some Districts, the Trustee gripes. However, and again, it is a legitimate expense.

The day care would not. We paid $700 a month in 2008 and claimed so on our taxes this year. My wife quit working in march this year and and so only paid until about mid march then nothing. I am not sure they would question a gap of none in april though.

Good. I'm not sure I'd worry about the "gap" in a month due to loss of job.

Me and my wife are filing joint so two debtors the car would work but like I said we really dont have the extra cash to buy one out right and cannot get a loan because of our credit.

I wouldn't buy a new car, if you really don't need to. Why go into more debt on the eve of Bankruptcy?

Are you filing pro se?

[Klesko]

If I do both of the above it should put me more comfortably negative then before. I just dont want to get pushed into a BK13. But I also dont want to trigger really bad things like the UST getting involved. I am not hiding anything but my finances were a mess the past 2-3 years. They are solid right now and looking forward things look good, but we just cant hope to pay off the 180k we owe in debts.

We dont need another car right now. My plan is after BK7 is to consult for a few extra jobs and put in alot of extra hours and get our savings built back up and buy a reasonable used car for my wife with cash.

[willowhare]

Hi. I filed pro se in Illinois, and I did list utilities as a part of my expenses. There are lines for them on Schedule J. Those are necessary and allowable expenses.

Another good idea I've heard of is to increase your amount of home/renter's and car insurance for the period up until you file. These are often required by law or the terms of your mortage/lease, so they are often not questioned.

As for the church donation and childcare--the key is whether these are ongoing expenses that you can prove you've been paying for a little while. Since you are planning far enough ahead, you should be able to use them.

[jessegirl]

I did not mean pad as in fake. Sorry if I expressed that in the wrong way. All of the numbers listed above are hard and provable. I have taken great care in not over estimating numbers.

Ways to increase my expenses some examples I thought about where.

- Give $150 a month to my church with a check
- Give my parents $300 a month for Baby Sitting with a check noted baby sitting on it.
- I know I could go get a second car, but one is we cant afford it right now and two we cant get a loan right now.

(If I started today I can only pay 4 months before filing so not sure if that would be questioned.)

I believe that if you start making checks out now and then file in 4 months it MAY be questioned. Look, everyone knows 4 months before filing that you are having trouble and have either talked about BK or thought about BK and know thats the only way out. Now, if you just start making checks out to the church, I think it MAY make a trustee look closer at your expenses. Saying "this person is having issues with making ends meet and now they are giving 150.00 to the church, and buying a second car.... Be very careful..... You do not want to throw up any red flags or stand out.

How much do you make that you would give 150.00 a month to the church???That what you have to think about. If your only making 60K and your having issues with your bills, why would you all of a sudden start giving 150.00 a month to the church? Besides like justbroke said, you would of had to shown contributions on your tax returns. Cause the trustee will be on to what you are doing....They are VERY smart and have seen it all.....Hows watching the baby now? I think that if you all of a sudden start writing checks out to your mother for baby sitting it COULD again, cause problems.

Now, this is just my own opinion, I just do not want to see anyone go thru what we went thru. I was so honest with everything and when the UST stepped I was scared shxx!

We have had my rolls with the UST and they look at everything. Just go and read some of my posts. It's has been a fight since 2 weeks after filing.

Now legitatment things would be - Does anyone in your family take medication? If so, add that to your expenses. We were allowed dry cleaning expenses, which was about 80.00 a month. Trustee never questioned that. Also, ulitities are allowable, gas, elec. cable,cellphone, interenet. etc. How about co-pays to doctors or pediatricians. My attorney was allowed to add in clothing for a family of four at 200.00 per month. That was also not quetioned by the trustee. We also added in pumping of our septic, not sure if you have one, but if you do use that. How about, water & sewerage? and Groceries.

Goodluck sweety....

[Klesko]

I was planning on hiring a lawyer but I am debating on filing pro se.

How much time is involved with filing pro se? How much is the filing fee?

[LuciluS]

Utilities are an Allowable Expense. The papers we received from our Attorney go so far as to break Utilities down into Gas, Electricity, Water/Sewer, Cable and Telephone.

Also you can include gas and vehicle maintenance (oil changes & with our tax refund we bought new tires for both vehciles...a 1999 & 2006) on your car.

Luci

[Klesko]

I have been using this form.

http://www.legalconsumer.com/bankruptcy/nolo/syn_nolo_bankruptcy-means-test.php

It auto calculates the amounts you can take off based on your area. When I put the numbers in, it comes up about 4400 for me right now.

[jessegirl]

Is that with adding some of things that I mentioned in my reply?

[justbroke]

I was planning on hiring a lawyer but I am debating on filing pro se.

You may want a lawyer if you are close/over the median and you are close to the expenses and passing the median.

How much time is involved with filing pro se? How much is the filing fee?

Time is dependent on your case. How many assets (property), how many things to exempt, how much money you have in banks (including 401(k), investment). If you're a no-asset case and a family of two (2), you could possibly file after several weeks of research and then completing the 50-75 page packet known as the Petition. Yes, it's really that thick, and thicker the more creditors and assets you have.

I'm worried because you haven't mentioned how much debt you seek to "discharge" in this Chapter 7. If your unsecured creditors are over $100K, you probably should be seeing a lawyer. The US Trustee will certainly look at everything when you get to (and/or surpass) that number! If your family size is really two (2 including yourself and wife), then you are right on that median income line. You may be scrutinized more.