Question about suspected fraud

[rosalynl]

Ok, so we've come to the conclusion that we need to file for bankruptcy and since we reached the limits on our cards two weeks ago (without the ability to make any payments), we haven't bee able to use (or pay) the debt. Before, we were using the cards only for daily living stuff (gas, groceries, etc). Also, about a week ago, we had to charge about $300 dollars worth of stuff on our Kohl's credit card, since we needed some clothing (I needed new shoes and an outfit for a job interview). We didn't have any room on any other cards, and no cash, so we used the store credit line. We had about $1,000 available credit. Should we wait to file bankruptcy? Will they suspect fraud, especially with a $300 purchase on the store card? If we should wait, how long should we wait? Thank you all!

[TEW]

No that use isn't going to be a problem. They need to have more then a suspicion of fraud. they have to prove it.
Have you seen an attorny yet or done a means test to see how you can file?

[roozterdvx]

That's not a "huge amount" but as stated above, have you seen an atty?


Welcome to the forum.
Look around and get comfy...there's tons of info on here to read.


I would say you should wait more than 90 days since your last charge to file.


Have you missed any CC payments yet?
If ch7 is inevitable, start dropping payments on some CC's and gradually drop the rest.
Call some attys and go in for the free consults, explain your situation/circumstances and find out your options.
Start saving for atty and filing fees.

Prepare yourself...it's an emotional rollercoaster at times but get all your stuff together and it will turn out alright.
I wish I had planned our ch7 better and learned more but that's the way the cookie crumbles. We have our 341 scheduled for next week and the TT has asked for some additional stuff which we provided and I'm hoping it goes smoothly.

Don't be afraid to ask questions...we're all in the same boat and everybody can either help or at least offer support.

[CatsInTrouble]

yeah, I'm thinking you may want to wait the 90 days (or your atty will tell you the same) BUT it's not that bad. We stopped paying cards in Nov (end) and didn't file til April 22-- just phone calls, not much else... Stop paying those cards!

[MichiganMan]

I think waiting 90 days is a little blown out of the picture. I would ask attorneys in your area that deal with your trustee's if it is an issue. I used a card a month before filing because really did not know I was going to be filing, but needed a few home repair items.

If asked by the TT you tell him what you used it on and he will say good! Find a job!

My attorney said no biggy, and she was right. No biggy. She said if it was a large amount over $600.00 or something maybe. But the CC company still needs to file fruad and will cost them money. If the judge said yes it was fruad you would have to pay what was charged recently, not the balance.

Her rule of thumb was dont use them, but if you have to use them spend less then what it would cost the cc company to have legal repesentation argue it. If you stop paying ALL your CC bilss in advance they will not let you use them anyway, they kill them. I paid all my bills up to one month before we filed. We had an event causing us to file so it was not planned. If I had known we were going to file I would have stopped paying therefore could not have used my cards anyway.

[BornAgain]

From somebody nearing 2,000 posts:

No that use isn't going to be a problem. They need to have more then a suspicion of fraud. they have to prove it. Have you seen an attorny yet or done a means test to see how you can file?

From somebody with less than 45 posts:

I think waiting 90 days is a little blown out of the picture.

From somebody with almost 3,000 posts:

[Y]ou can not charge on the credit cards within 90 days of filing. If you have already charged on your cards, small purchases even, do NOT file until you have 90 days with no charges. You are taking a risk by continuing to charge on your cards. You risk either a conversion to a Ch 13, or the recent charges would not be dischargeable, or what is worse, an outright dismissal of your case. In a dismissal, you would still owe all the debt.

Another:

If you have had charges within 90 days of filing - that will be an issue as the Trustee assumes you knew you were not going to repay...

...you must stop charging at least 90 days prior to filing.

...the charging needs to stop at least a minimum of 90 days prior to filing.

Less than 200 posts:

Yeah, any charges within 90 days are just begging for trouble.

Two months ago someone posted a question about how to handle the entanglement of his/her accounts with their parent's accounts. An established member here posted an 'answer' (with certainty and no disclaimer) that was entirely wrong and likely would have caused terrible problems. I posted the correct answer and referenced the bankruptcy law text I found it in. The Bubble-head Poster with the wrong answer replied, "Oh, thank you, now we know." He/She was totally ignorant of the harm almost caused and his/her carefree attitude about whether or not advice is correct is disgusting. Here, have a look yourself:

Guru advice = Quality advice?

Lesson being, rosalynl, you cannot trust the answers you get here. Some well-meaning people are almost totally indifferent to the veracity of their advice and apparently care not one whit if it causes great harm. Others have advice backed by knowledge and/or experience. In any case it behooves you to double & triple check on advice you receive.

It's clearly caveat emptor here on the BK forum, as far as taking advice goes. I feel sorry for the folks who trust advice and not verify. But I really scorn people who post advice and information phrased with certainty, and answer questions sounding absolutely sure when they shouldn't because they don't really have an authorative answer.

Fortunately, with just a litle lurking it's pretty easy to tell who's standing on a foundation of knowledge and who's pulling an answer or opinion out of a hat. Hint: It doesn't have to do with post count.

[JRScott]

It is best if at all possible to wait 90 days after the last credit card use, however that is not mandatory.

If indeed all charges other than the clothes were routine daily expenses of food, gas, etc then there is no presumption of abuse for those items.

The clothing could possibly be seen as abuse, for example the Trustee could claim you could have just worn something you had already. However this is still probably not likely to raise any major concerns, even if it did and Kohl's objected you'd still only owe the 300 to them not everything else.

On objecting to charges creditors have to do a line by line objection. They have to prove that it was fraud, which means at the time of the charge you intended never to pay it back. That is a hard burden to prove, expecially if all you have is gas, food, etc on the credit card bills.

As always you should speak to 3-4 bk attorneys in your area as you make plans to file, this is something you should bring up to each and see what they say.

[MichiganMan]

ewww.... yeah....

Wow.... Please do what I also said talk to your attorney.

I am so ashamed that I tried to get you in trouble...... give me a frikin break!

The only time you have to worry about fraud is if you are actually doing it. All I was doing was saying stop loosing sleep over it, and talk to your attorney. I know I am jus a little guy with little post..... so sad..... wish I had more than I would have an opinion.

I guess someone only read the parts of my post they wanted to critic. Must have missed the part where I explained my case was different because we did not know we were filing and we had a personal event that started the BK.

If you were not aware this is a FORUM, you know wher everyone says what you think. You know like in a forum!

Well, no more advise from me. Good bye!

[relief13035]

Some people need to get a life and stop counting posts.

[BornAgain]

I guess someone only read the parts of my post they wanted to critic.

I guess someone read only the parts of my post they wanted to critique.



Hey MichiganMan, sincerely, I think you didn't read all my post very well.

I quoted people and grouped the quotes into the two opposed viewpoints they represent. It's the juxtaposition I intend to show. Did you breeze over my post and assume that by including your post I disagree with your advice? (I actually agree with you and TEW.)

But instead of just throwing my advice in with the mix I think the more important point to make to rosalynl is that she be careful with any advice she reads here. There are fools about proffering their advice with little competency other than their own bk, reading here and posting a lot of posts.

I meant no offense to you. Please, read my post again -- you're upset simply because I included your post as one side of the advice here.

[BornAgain]

Some people need to get a life and stop counting posts.

Me?

Good grief. RIF Reading is fundamental. You've missed the point entirely. Way to go, slugger.

[MichiganMan]

Can not hit thousands

Will never be a guru I guess. Because keeping my opinion to myself in a forum will not get me those precious numbers.

You know: Guru advice = Quality advice?

I know those Guru's had atleast a dozen Bk in their life times. The irony of your comments are that the people with thousands of post had the same one BK I had.

This forum is about sharing ideas, experience and opinions. I shared my experience with a similar situation; i.e. Recent charge on CC.

The difference is the state, trustee, CC company and etc.

I agree with you so much I am bowing out from offering my advise further!

[BornAgain]

If you were not aware this is a FORUM, you know wher everyone says what you think. You know like in a forum!

You know, maybe we do disagree on something.

Quoted above you seem to advocate that everyone should post whatever they think in answer to questions. Okay, so Nellie Naive comes along and with her first post asks her question. BeginAgain2009 comes along and, having accumulated a wealth of Internet Bovine Excrement, post an answer that is not only wrong but could lead to trouble if followed.

And it seems you think that's okay because, after all, this is a FORUM. And that's what people do in a FORUM.

Well I think that apart from this being and Internet forum, this is a place where distressed people looking for answers come to seek advice from other people who by appearances (join date, post count) are knowledgeble about the topic.

And in my world, people have an obligation to other people which includes knowing when to not offer advice. It's easy: if a person doesn't know what the heck she's talking about she shouldn't give advice on the question.

MichiganMan, we may agree on even what I've just wrote. It is certainly possible I've misinterperted what you wrote. But if you mean that because this is a forum anyone should give whatever advice they think is correct, then we disagree.

[BornAgain]

Well, no more advise from me. Good bye!

I agree with you so much I am bowing out from offering my advise further!

Oh, okay. It's your ball. If you want to take it home because you're unhappy that's your prerogative. [shrug]

[BornAgain]

Will never be a guru I guess. Because keeping my opinion to myself in a forum will not get me those precious numbers.

You know: Guru advice = Quality advice?

I know those Guru's had atleast a dozen Bk in their life times. The irony of your comments are that the people with thousands of post had the same one BK I had.

This forum is about sharing ideas, experience and opinions. I shared my experience with a similar situation; i.e. Recent charge on CC.

The difference is the state, trustee, CC company and etc.

I agree with you so much I am bowing out from offering my advise further!

Okay, I understand you're upset because you think I'm implying that the folks with high post counts are... I don't know, 'more correct'.

Well, uh, that's not what I wrote.

RIF

Truly, you somehow missed the point by a mile. How did you do that?