Question about suspected fraud

[BornAgain]

I don't expect to be liked for what I've written here. I realize that I'm giving offense to people who post advice that is flat-out, you-should-know-better, wrong.

But those people should be offended.

And people who come here thinking members will be careful with their advice should be warned.

The time leading up to filing a bk is loaded with opportunities to screw up and make things worse. That makes it ever more incumbent on all of us to be careful in the advice we post.

:sigh:

MI-Man, my original post was way too subtle for you. I should have wrote it more plainly. I'm sorry and I hope I've been able to clarify my meaning.

[Flamingo]

You know, maybe we do disagree on something.

Quoted above you seem to advocate that everyone should post whatever they think in answer to questions. Okay, so Nellie Naive comes along and with her first post asks her question. BeginAgain2009 comes along and, having accumulated a wealth of Internet Bovine Excrement, post an answer that is not only wrong but could lead to trouble if followed.

And it seems you think that's okay because, after all, this is a FORUM. And that's what people do in a FORUM.

Well I think that apart from this being and Internet forum, this is a place where distressed people looking for answers come to seek advice from other people who by appearances (join date, post count) are knowledgeble about the topic.

And in my world, people have an obligation to other people which includes knowing when to not offer advice. It's easy: if a person doesn't know what the heck she's talking about she shouldn't give advice on the question.

MichiganMan, we may agree on even what I've just wrote. It is certainly possible I've misinterperted what you wrote. But if you mean that because this is a forum anyone should give whatever advice they think is correct, then we disagree.

There is a disclaimer on the front page of this website/forum. Please read it. Advice given in this forum is not legal advice and one should consult an attorney to get the correct advice for their own particular situation. As with any situation in any forum on any subject, one person will say the color is white, the other person will say the color is off-white, the other person will say the color is cream, the other person will say the color is eggshell....you get the picture. There are many long-term folks on here with good experienced advice and who give very good points as to what to expect or do. No one is saying that anyone has to follow it.

[StartingOver08]

There is a disclaimer on the front page of this website/forum. Please read it. Advice given in this forum is not legal advice and one should consult an attorney to get the correct advice for their own particular situation. As with any situation in any forum on any subject, one person will say the color is white, the other person will say the color is off-white, the other person will say the color is cream, the other person will say the color is eggshell....you get the picture. There are many long-term folks on here with good experienced advice and who give very good points as to what to expect or do. No one is saying that anyone has to follow it.

Thank you Flamingo. This is said quite well.
I took BornAgain's post to mean that I should not post anymore either as my advice is bad advice for suggesting that you stop charging on the credit cards 90 days before filing. We can only go by our own experience. Yes, I only had one BK. One is enough for me. So maybe we can turn off the post count for those of use that post a lot of 'congratulations' and that type of thing???

[BornAgain]

No, I'm not suggesting that anyone stop posting alltogether. Just that, oh... maybe what we post should be, I don't know... correct, maybe.

True, there are questions posted about the grey areas of bk process and law -- your shades-of-color metaphor, Flamingo. There also exists questions that are black and white. "Is it a good thing to keep paying creditors up until I file?" is a grey area question. "Can I pay back my Aunt Martha $900 from my tax return?" is black and white. I think people should be careful to get the black-and-white answers correct.

I don't think that a little Home Page disclaimer is enough. Not enough by a long shot. It's primary purpose is to reduce the risk of legal liability to the site owners should someone follow poor advice, suffer damages, and sue. I don't believe that the disclaimer can be held out as some kind of magic innoculation that will 1) help Nellie Naive recognize bad advice or 2) absolve BeginAgain2009 from carelessly posting crud he 'thinks' is correct.

Yes, there absolutely are folks here with a wealth of knowledge that they generously share. And there are people with a little knowledge who post from what little they know. I answer very few questions because there are very few things that I know I can answer correctly. I feel an obligation to the people here to not give them a bunch of BS. [sarcasm] But heck, maybe I should just start throwing out half-baked answers because, after all, there is that disclaimer on the home page. [/sarcasm]

It is a childish interpertation of my point to claim that I want anyone to stop posting. And yes, StartingOver08, you've posted some really wrong answers and some really bad answers. If you don't have the maturity to see that it's those answers that I'm against -- not all your posts -- then anything I've written in this thread is probably lost on you.

[StartingOver08]

Lets just agree to disagree. If you think that the answers are bad answers, you are entited to your opinion too. However, the ad hominem attack is not warranted and not appreciated.

This forum is a group of us that have been thru the BK process answering based on our own experience. My experience was different from your experience. My district may handle BK's entirely differently than your district, I have no way of knowing that information. I have never held out myself as any sort of expert in the law or BK. However, I believe most people come here to find out what has happened in other cases so they can prepare their filing adequately.

Suggesting that the OP stop using cc's prior to filing is not bad advice. Better the OP knows that the Trustee reviews their financial affairs prior to filing, then have the review at the 341. It is helpful to know this in advance, because timing is extemely important when filing BK. The 90 day period comes from here:

http://www.doney.net/bkcode/11usc0523.htm

11 U.S.C. 523 (C)
(i) for purposes of subparagraph (A)--

(I) consumer debts owed to a single creditor and aggregating more than $500 [$550] for luxury goods or services incurred by an individual debtor on or within 90 days before the order for relief under this title are presumed to be nondischargeable; and

(II) cash advances aggregating more than $750 [$825] that are extensions of consumer credit under an open end credit plan obtained by an individual debtor on or within 70 days before the order for relief under this title, are presumed to be nondischargeable; and

[Dollar amounts in subsections 523(a)(2)(C)(i) and (ii) are adjusted on April 1 every 3 years by section 104. Adjusted amounts effective 4-1-07 are in brackets.]

(ii) for purposes of this subparagraph--

(I) the terms "consumer", "credit", and "open end credit plan" have the same meanings as in section 103 of the Truth in Lending Act; and

(II) the term "luxury goods or services" does not include goods or services reasonably necessary for the support or maintenance of the debtor or a dependent of the debtor

There is more. Read the link.

[reallybroke]

A forum is exactly that..a forum..It is based on opinions from people from all walks of life, with very different but sometimes similar circumstances.
What everyone should realize, is that noone will have the same outcome in their BK based on where they live, their attorney, their trustee, etc.

In my opinion, I would rather be overly prepared or "better safe, than sorry"
Too many people assume "oh, they won't care about this or that,etc or surely the trustee won't look at whatever" and it winds them in a heap of trouble.

There are several people on this forum who have had all of their paperwork scrutinized beyond belief! How do you know you might not be next? Yes, there are some people who breeze through their 341, discharge,etc.
But there are many more who have involvement from the US trustee and some that are even dismissed.

I personally have great respect for some of the people who have had their BK's closed for a LONG time..but still continue to answer questions and give support and encouragent to those of us who are still going through the process. Startingover08 is one of those whom I have called upon for an opinion. She always responds, but reminds me that her thoughts are just that..an opinion..and not legal advice.

If you want legal advice..hire an attorney..make sure you get a good one..as I am finding out..that lot's of attorney's also give out WRONG advice.

[Pizza]

(II) the term "luxury goods or services" does not include goods or services reasonably necessary for the support or maintenance of the debtor or a dependent of the debtor

Am I correctly guessing that clothing would only be considered a luxury expense if was expensive and purchased unnecessarily? (as opposed to replacing clothing that is 'worn out')?

[BornAgain]

A forum is exactly that..a forum..It is based on opinions from people from all walks of life, with very different but sometimes similar circumstances.

What everyone should realize, is that noone will have the same outcome in their BK based on where they live, their attorney, their trustee, etc.

Well if all you're looking for is an opinion -- you've come to the right place!

(What's that they say about opinions?)

A lot of people here seem to be interested in nothing more than finding out what others think about an issue.

I'm coming to understand that I'm likely the only one here who cares about the quality of answers given here. Maybe I'm the one missing the point and this community is more about the shared experience -- and having a unique point of view, no more right or wrong than anyone else's.

Well then. :shrug: Sorry. Shuffles off, humming Kumbaya.

[BornAgain]

Am I correctly guessing that clothing would only be considered a luxury expense if was expensive and purchased unnecessarily? (as opposed to replacing clothing that is 'worn out')?

How many times does it have to be posted...

If you have had charges within 90 days of filing - that will be an issue as the Trustee assumes you knew you were not going to repay the charge as you knew you were insolvent. So, you must stop charging at least 90 days prior to filing.

I don't see anything there about luxury. But I do see 'will be an issue' and 'must stop charging at least 90 days prior'. (Emphasis mine, obviously.)

(The quote above is real, well-intended, [strike]BS[/strike] opinion.)

[TEW]

How many times does it have to be posted...



I don't see anything there about luxury. But I do see 'will be an issue' and 'must stop charging at least 90 days prior'. (Emphasis mine, obviously.)

(The quote above is real, well-intended, [strike]BS[/strike] opinion.)

bornagain you are WRONG

[IBroke]

There is a disclaimer on the front page of this website/forum. Please read it. Advice given in this forum is not legal advice and one should consult an attorney to get the correct advice for their own particular situation. As with any situation in any forum on any subject, one person will say the color is white, the other person will say the color is off-white, the other person will say the color is cream, the other person will say the color is eggshell....you get the picture.

I'm somehow having the feeling that even attorneys would answer that particular question differently - also depending on the local court-rules..

[IBroke]

Am I correctly guessing that clothing would only be considered a luxury expense if was expensive and purchased unnecessarily? (as opposed to replacing clothing that is 'worn out')?

Necessary clothing = NO luxury goods

Palin-Clothing = Luxury goods

[shabam]

There are a number of valid points here. It is almost a given that Bk is a very serious matter and not something to be left to opinion or taken lightly. While most people are providing simple advice in the form of their opinion, which are usually based on their experiences, anyone with a complicated or unorthodox question or situation must seek advice from a competent BK lawyer.

On one hand, I too agree that someone throwing out advice can be dangerous to someone else. We are talking about bk here. Not some topic of which vehicle to do you prefer. People should post with care as well as take any advice with care. Common sense really.

Devils advocate though, every state and district is different and has different rules. While BK is a federal process there are a lot of gray areas depending on the court / district / state. My rule of thumb for BK is basically assume the worst, just to be safe. Any feedback, notably that of someone from my local area, is appreciated and welcome.

As my lawyer (who is a trustee too) said, if these bastards want to get you, they will come after you with everything they have.

[dingdong]

I invite everyone to come over to Blankslates thread on her Dismissal, continued 341, blah blah.

Much more fun over there.

We aren't passing judgement, don't care about your post count.


Oh yeah, and we're looking for a drummer ( Has to be a girl!)

[BornAgain]

bornagain you are WRONG

Oops!

Oh wait... That's not my post I quoted -- it's from StartingOver08! Oh man, how'd I go and do that. Sorry people. Move along. Nothing to see here. It's just an opinion -- doesn't have to be right or wrong.



And oh yeah, TEW, you know... check your private messges -- board admin is notifying everyone that the word you wrote in all-caps is being banned from usage on this web site. The say that pointing out that advice is 'The Word That Shall Not Be Spoken' is mean spirited and judgemental. Just FYI.

Happy Posting.