being shaken down by BK lawyer...

[arameth]

So my wife's CH7 filing is going fairly well...had some bumps at 341 meeting (lawyer didn't even bother to show...sent some stranger to stand in for him, and US trustee was pretty harsh), but we're past that. I think we have another week before she is at the magic 61 day mark (and hopefully gets discharge papers).

The snag now: The lawyer wants a bunch of extra money for all the "extra work" he has had to do, besides the original retainer/fee that was paid before the filing. What a bunch of bull. He has barely done a thing, and really hung us out to dry at the 341 by not showing...the stand in didn't know a thing about our case. Guess it could have been worse...the trustee basically threw the other case out for the other couple there ot file since the paperwork was so botched.

So...a we have a bunch of questions:

1. Can the "debt" owed to the lawyer be included in the BK, after the 341 meeting? I feel like this was a dirty trick he pulled, trying to create this new debt after the filing.

2. Wouldn't payment of this debt be seen as preferential payment?

3. The filing papers even state the originally agreed upon fee...and make no mention of all this extra money he wants. Wouldn't he be guilty of purjery by making this false statement? Should we report this to the trustee?

4. I heard that laywers will often inflate their bill, just so they can write off this "bad debt", for tax purposes. How does one breach this subject with a lawyer to see if this is their intent, or if they actually plan on trying to collect?

I was tempted to pay just to end this, but I've lost my job...so we're both out of work. Can't squeeze blood from a rock.

Thank you for any advice or suggestions.

[spidge]

Good question. Can you contact the trustee and ask?

[arameth]

contact the trustee?

yes...I can email the trustee. But, we were afraid of messing up the filing by doing so. It would really stink if we somehow delayed the discharge if we didn't have to. Any chance of that happening?

PS: We've recently discovered that this lawyer has a bad reputation and habit of pulling this sort of thing. I wonder how many complaints the state bar has on this guy? Would the trustee be able to step in? Or would we contact the actual judge assigned to the case?

[dingdong]

Most state bars have an online database where you can check and see if an attorney has had any issues.


Check your state bar website, you might find something. And carefully read your fee agreement and see if there are any stipulations for other fees.


What other services is he trying to bill you for?

Only debts incurred prior to your filing date can be included in your BK estate. DId he bill you before you filed for the extra services?

[arameth]

After looking at this document text, it really does seem that he did not accurately state what he was charging. Again, the fee he specified was paid in full prior to filing...then all these crazy charges came mostly before the filing, and even some after the fact. So he even had opportunity to change the above form to reflect these new amounts.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

[lrprn]

The fee dispute you are experiencing is an lawyer ethics violation.

To report your lawyer, go to http://research.lawyers.com/Reportin...iolations.html . Scroll down to your state and link the link. Contact the person or office listed here to share your complaint. Ask what options you have at this point to resolve the fee dispute with your lawyer. Be sure to keep every single piece of evidence you have that he is charging you twice for the same services, that he didn't show for your 341, any emails or letters sent between the two of you, etc.

Another place to report your lawyer for misrepresentation of fees and services is your state's lawyer disciplinary agency at http://www.abanet.org/cpr/regulation/directory.pdf

I'm sorry you had to find out about the importance of ALWAYS having a signed contract that specifies the lawyer's fee and exactly what is covered by the fee ahead of time. I hope you are able to resolve this quickly and in your favor. Good luck - please keep us posted how this turns out for you.

[arameth]

thanks!

Thanks for the feedback. Besides filing a complaint with the state bar, I am emailing the trustee, the US Trustee, and the judge assigned to the case. And anyone else that who may have jurisdiction over matters such as this. It just really seems obvious that if he filed papers saying he collected a specifica fee, for ALL related services for the BK, and that it was paid in full, that he cannot then add on additional charges after the fact. Especially since they are totally bogus in our eyes.

Lawyers like this are the ones who give the profession a bad reputation. I'll be SURE to spread the word around town about this joker. The internet is a wonderful thing for unethical people like this.

[HHM]

Ok, as much as we like to support our members, let's be fair and realize we are getting ONE side of the story.

First, not having your attorney at the 341 meeting, although bad form, is not really a big deal. The attorney doesn't do anything and NOTHING can happen to you at the 341.

As for the extra fees, you need to review your fee agreement with the attorney. Most attorney's will have a clause for post filing work. The "basic" BK fee only covers the work to analyze and file your case with the BK court. Anything that happens after the date of filing can be extra.

I will take issue with your characterization of non-sensical tasks, whether by the attorney or staff. Responding to emails, answering phone calls, TAKE TIME, and that is what attorney's sell, time and expertise. The average time to review a persons file, get prepared for a phone call, place the phone call, is about 5 minutes, then add in the actually conversation time. Multiply that by 100 clients, you can suck up an entire day doing it...attorneys can bill for that. Same goes with e-mails, infact, emails actually take a little longer.

Now, if he is trying to bill you for stuff done before filing, he is out of luck. But you lose a fee dispute 9 ways to Sunday for post filing work.

[sassiebaz]

I wondered about the fee list I signed before we filed. It said something like .45 cents a mile, then another fee for copies and faxes. Then another fee for research. So, Im a little nervous about being billed for something after the fact. Hopefully not, but it will be in the back of my mind until Im done with this whole thing! So far I have had a great experience with this law firm. I hoping things go off without a hitch!

[HHM]

This is the problem when people go shopping for the lowest up front fee. They find a cheap attorney, but in the end find that they paid about the same as the more expensive firm and get less value and service. There are firms that do BK's for a true flat rate with no additional costs, but they tend to be more expensive. You just need to decide what's more important, certainty as to cost, or the risk of being nickeled and dimed.

[BkinTX]

Ours was $2700. Is that crazy ridiculous high?

[Kkole425]

Our Chapter 7 is $2000.00 plus court fees. My attorney told us he is one of the highest in the city and he would be happy to give us some good names of cheeper attorneys. He said the average cost is $850.00 in our city. He also said there are no add on fees with him. That is where they get you he told us. We do have a contract that says start to finish price. We just decided to pay more now rather than be surprised later.

[HHM]

Ours was $2700. Is that crazy ridiculous high?

No, it's not.

[arameth]

response

Ok, as much as we like to support our members, let's be fair and realize we are getting ONE side of the story.

First, not having your attorney at the 341 meeting, although bad form, is not really a big deal. The attorney doesn't do anything and NOTHING can happen to you at the 341.

**I respectfully disagree. There were at least two questions asked of the "stand in" during the 341...and all she could do is produce a blank stare, and shuffle through the paperwork. The case almost got converted into an asset case because of this (that is what the trustee said). Lucky for us, the trustee was patient enough to pursue the answer that saved us from that fate. The other couple that was being "represented" actually had their case dismissed...the paperwork was in such a poor state, and she did not know any answers other than what was contained in the paperwork. They were absolutely furious! So I'd suggest the following change to your earlier statement: The careless/bad/unqualified attorney doesn't do anything... And ANYTHING can happen at the 341...we even had a surprise visit from the US Trustee...and he really turned up the heat, and wished someone was there to help us through some tough questions and really off color comments that were not expected.

As for the extra fees, you need to review your fee agreement with the attorney. Most attorney's will have a clause for post filing work. The "basic" BK fee only covers the work to analyze and file your case with the BK court. Anything that happens after the date of filing can be extra.



I will take issue with your characterization of non-sensical tasks, whether by the attorney or staff. Responding to emails, answering phone calls, TAKE TIME, and that is what attorney's sell, time and expertise. The average time to review a persons file, get prepared for a phone call, place the phone call, is about 5 minutes, then add in the actually conversation time. Multiply that by 100 clients, you can suck up an entire day doing it...attorneys can bill for that. Same goes with e-mails, infact, emails actually take a little longer.

**I find it curious that you are objecting to my post, yet you don't even know who you are defending? I could only wish that phone calls were taking 5 minutes for this lawyer and his staff. The AVERAGE on his billing detail says over 20 minutes for phone calls, voicemails and emails!!! And I was copied on some of the emails...they were typically 1 to 2 sentences long. I object to paying for them to sit and think that long to come up with content that would take a 3rd grader as much time. I stand by my original characterization of the charges generally being "non-sensical"....unless you have some information that I don't.

Now, if he is trying to bill you for stuff done before filing, he is out of luck. But you lose a fee dispute 9 ways to Sunday for post filing work.

**He is indeed trying to bill mostly for stuff done before filing. There is a small amount of work done after. But my contention is that he didn't even "earn" the original fee given as retainer...so by that logic there should not be any additional charges. Two other lawyers in the area that I've run into after the filing both said that this was a slam dunk case, no asset ch7. And as for going with the cheapest, that was certainly not the case. There were firms in the area doing the work for less than 1/2 of what he originally quoted during our consultation. Incidentally, I've dug up a trail of former clients having similar problems...and it was very similar to our experience. He is very nice up front, very responsive, and answers questions during your consultation. The minute he gets his retainer paid, then you are essentially cut off. And then the overbilling pattern emerges. You even get billed for leaving a voicemails and sending emails, as they won't return your calls for days or weeks.

I'd like to consider your first comment about being fair and support the members, and I believe your intent was to present a balanced view on situations like this. But I also got the feeling that you were somewhat disregarding my experience and siding with the lawyer, not knowing all the facts. I know you can't take my word for what I've described, but on the same token, I would hope that my account can be given the benefit of the doubt. Note I am not using the name of said lawyer...so what would my motive be to lie or misrepresent our situation if I'm searching for advice on a matter that very much is still in play?

I'll let everyone know what the Trustee/US Trustee/Judge responses are.

Thanks again to all who responded.