Did my ex girlfrield commit fraud? Should I report or...?

[oneklub]

If you expect to have any form of a civilized working relationship with the mother of your child it's wise to stay quiet. It's tempting to take a cheap shot at the mother and report her but if you truly have the best interests of your child at heart let it go. If not expect to battle the woman over every issue for the next eighteen years.

That doesn't mean forget it. Keep good records of what you found on PACER and what you have paid. That info may come in handy down the road to fight a custody battle or if you need to renegotiate child support payments. Save the ammo until you truly need it.

Got it. Whatever I do, keep records. Now that is a point that several people have made. Thanks. We will need to renegotiate at some point.

[oneklub]

The care she's giving your son should not be contingent on the amount of money she receives from you. I hope that is never the case.

I think it's honorable, however, to contribute as much as you can to help in his raising. Not to "pay her" for taking care of him, but because it's the right thing to do -- to support him in every way you can, as much as you can.

It's obvious from your posts that you are a compassionate person and you wish the best for my son. Thank you. Human life is indeed priceless.

[CarrieOakey]

(I'm sorry, it's late for me and it's entirely possible that I missed a vital bit of information!)

Please, please, please - if you haven't already got all of this established through the courts, do so. Your visitation, your CS payments all need to be done properly; this protects both of you. I'm still not convinced that you'd be successful in getting a downwards modification, but that's certainly something you could ask an attorney.

(btw, I'm not implying - even loosely! - that she would try to screw you in the future, but such things have been known to happen, specially if, as and when a new love interest appears on the scene with one of the parties...)

And if it IS all sorted out? Play by the rules; if she ever does deny you your court-ordered visitation, you file for contempt. I realise this is going far beyond the boundaries of a bk forum, but if you take only one thing from this thread, be it this: you don't have any rights unless and until you have 'em established and exercised

Take care and good luck, regardless of what happens!

[oneklub]

(I'm sorry, it's late for me and it's entirely possible that I missed a vital bit of information!)

Please, please, please - if you haven't already got all of this established through the courts, do so. Your visitation, your CS payments all need to be done properly; this protects both of you. I'm still not convinced that you'd be successful in getting a downwards modification, but that's certainly something you could ask an attorney.

(btw, I'm not implying - even loosely! - that she would try to screw you in the future, but such things have been known to happen, specially if, as and when a new love interest appears on the scene with one of the parties...)

And if it IS all sorted out? Play by the rules; if she ever does deny you your court-ordered visitation, you file for contempt. I realise this is going far beyond the boundaries of a bk forum, but if you take only one thing from this thread, be it this: you don't have any rights unless and until you have 'em established and exercised

Take care and good luck, regardless of what happens!

Thank you. I appreciate your straightforward comments. And I hear you well about having my rights "established and exercised."

[LuciluS]

I found a post where a person asked if child support is income. Very Interesting.

http://www.bkforum.com/archive/index.php/t-34174.html

Luci

[Flamingo]

ROFLOL..."Marry her." I really had to chuckle. We do so much better as just friends. Really. Did I mention the remaining $100K of non-dischargeable debt? Financial problems are the biggest source of divorce...wouldn't be a good start...even with a pre-nup...

I like what you say. And I'm considering many options (including the varied ones on this board). Some say "forget it" and some say confront her but "bide my time."

Any statute of limitations I need to keep in mind for this matter?

Thanks for the chuckle and the sage advice.

You are between a rock and a hard place. If you do what you feel you should do, it could create more issues; if you don't do anything, it will weigh on your brain for eternity. If you never found out this information or had access to the information via PACER, what would you be doing? She is her own person, you are your own person. She does not want you to know certain things she does, and I am sure you don't want her to know certain things you do and it appears the child is not suffering from lack of funds or care. If you feel you are paying too much child support and felt that before you saw all the information as to her BK, you can always file for a reduction for child support and see what happens and what information she provides compared to what you now have. Otherwise, you could be in for a big confrontation when she finds out you know all this and snooped out her case via PACER. As to reporting her for fraud? Same thing - big confrontation. You have to decide if calling her out on this situation is worth it in the long run or if it bothers you as to what she did, you can find out if you can somehow anonymously report the matter to the Trustee for review.

Again, marrying her and keeping quiet is the easiest way out but after she eliminated $100,000 of debt, I very much see your point...I would not want to be in your shoes - best of luck to you!

[newbeginning]

I agree with many here...i would not report her transgressions. It could make her AND your child's life more difficult and that isn't what you want.

Be there for your child!!!!!!

[B65]

well

firstly your ex getting rid of 100k worth of debt is only good news for your childs future. His well being and peace of mind especially if your ex has learnt lessons from the chapter 7 and starts to build a strong future for your son. What if you did have it overturned and she had to then take that debt back on? Not great for your son and at the end of the day he is the most important part of all this.

As for what you pay...... I would go to a courts and get a true indication of your ex's earnings now.. what she is earning as of today, the amount that goes in her bank account every month.... That is what should count... then ask for your child support to be modified they will then look at her current earnings and yours and make an aggreement. What they say is what goes I am afraid.
I have been on both sides, My hubby raised my stepdaughter( we both did) her mother left her with us at age 2, we never got a penny for her... at 14 she turned up wanted money and went to court and got her back and we had to pay her a fortune in child support for the next 4 years..even though she had not paid us in years. On the flip side I divorced my ex hubby who was very wealthy and took my 2 children, because he lived and worked overseas I could not get a court order for support.

The courts are not fair but all you can do is get a true income from the pair of you for now and do what the courts say. and at the end of the day count your blessings your child is healthy, well and in your life... it is only money and it could be so much worse.

Do you live near them? what about shared custody so support is negated?

[CarrieOakey]

Do you live near them? what about shared custody so support is negated?

Surely folk would never go for shared custody just to get support reduced, right?

I mean that's not what you're suggesting, right? Cos frankly, that would be absolutely appalling.

Please tell me it's just the lack of caffeine in my system?

[B65]

The poster

was saying he could not afford that high of a payment, I was just throwing all options at him.

[CarrieOakey]

No, no, I get that - and I'm sorry if I came across as somewhat less than sparkly

I'm just hugely against - I think I've seen it too many times - parents filing for 50/50 (or the closest their state will allow) solely to reduce their support obligation, and not in the best interest of the kids.

I honestly don't believe OP has that intention ...he obviously wants the best for kiddo. Heck, if every divorced/separated parent would just do that - do what's best for the kids - the world would be much better off!

[B65]

I agree

what is best for the child is what should come first. My daughters lived 16 hr flight from their dad and hardly saw him, I just sometimes think it would have been so much nicer for the children if their parents had lived in the same area and could have spent equal time with both, for their sake... they have no bond with their dad at all now... but you have to make the best of what you have and put the children's well being first.

[oneklub]

You are between a rock and a hard place. If you do what you feel you should do, it could create more issues; if you don't do anything, it will weigh on your brain for eternity. If you never found out this information or had access to the information via PACER, what would you be doing? She is her own person, you are your own person. She does not want you to know certain things she does, and I am sure you don't want her to know certain things you do and it appears the child is not suffering from lack of funds or care. If you feel you are paying too much child support and felt that before you saw all the information as to her BK, you can always file for a reduction for child support and see what happens and what information she provides compared to what you now have. Otherwise, you could be in for a big confrontation when she finds out you know all this and snooped out her case via PACER. As to reporting her for fraud? Same thing - big confrontation. You have to decide if calling her out on this situation is worth it in the long run or if it bothers you as to what she did, you can find out if you can somehow anonymously report the matter to the Trustee for review.

Again, marrying her and keeping quiet is the easiest way out but after she eliminated $100,000 of debt, I very much see your point...I would not want to be in your shoes - best of luck to you!

Your points are reasonable. Tell me what you think of my responses:

1)"Snooping" - not really. Bankruptcy information is public (in some communities it is posted in a public forum -- community center, journal, etc). Secondly, we are obligated by court order to disclose financial information to each other every year. Thirdly, in the court "discovery" phase, attorneys MUST be given a true account of income and expense information. And finally, several times she promised to send income/expense information to me but never has.

2) If I file for a change in support, as you mention, this bankruptcy will be brought up in the discovery phase...unless we discuss this issue beforehand, that would blindside her and could expose her to serious legal trouble.

3) For the sake of my mental health, I try (TRY) to confront most issues head on. I see productive confrontation as a difficult but necessary part of any honest and healthy relationship.

4) I think the discharge was very helpful to her. But, if it was not done honestly...well, she used Chapter 7 but perhaps Chapter 13 is an option (assuming the support amount put her over the limit for Chapter 7...this is conjecture, though).

[dingdong]

DId she file with an attorney?

Perhaps what you are reading in her petitions were prepared under attorney guidance.

She may not be commiting fraud at all, but following attorney guidelines to assure a best fit for a CH7.


I wouldn't blindside your EX. Being a single parent is stressful enough as it is.

You need to consider a few things before you start a confrontation with your ex.

Your ex faces ( no matter what anyone says) a lifetime of being considered a single woman with "baggage". I am not trying to say that children are "baggage", they are the biggest blessing in anyone's life, but when it comes to future dating/commitments, often single women with kids are kind of put into a different class from the perspective of single men. It usually takes a very special man to take on the challenges of raising someone elses kid (and kudos to those out there that do). Men with children don't seem to have quite the stigma of "the single father" that women have. SHe has to worry about who she brings into her home, whether she should introduce your son to a new potential mate in her life and she is most likely going to have to hold any future mate to a higher standard and more scrutiny than if she didn't have a child in the home.

She will have work issues. When your son is ill and can't go to childcare, your ex will be the one staying home to care for him. Your ex will also be subject to more illness as most moms with children in childcare, get sick more often because the kids bring home those little germies and bring them home to mom.

She is going to be the one staying up with him at night when he can't sleep, dealing with the day to day stresses of being a parent, etc.

Would you be spending 700/month to care for your son if you had sole custody? 700 is not a lot of money to provide for the care and feeding and day to day necessities of a small chld. I believe you mentioned that she spends 700/month in day care, I am assuming so that she can work. IF you split that amount, you are basically gving her 350.00/month to care and feed for your kid. That is 87.50 a week to feed, entertain, clothe, medicate, drive around, diaper a child.

Maybe you should ask yourself, would you be willing to pay someone 700.00 month to provide the absolute best care, unconditional love and support in your home?

Makes that 700.00 seem like a good deal to me.

BTW, I am a single parent, succesfully raised two kids without a dime in child support. And my kids suffered by not having their mom there all the time because I have had to work two jobs to be able to pay the rent, feed, clothe, pay for health care, etc. Would I have loved to do things differently, you bet, but it didn't work out that way. Sure it has been hard. And you know who would have benefitted from a little child support, my kids, cause that extra money could have been used to maybe work one or two less shifts per month, or maybe a weekend trip now and then. Or just a little less stress by being able to pay a utilty w/o getting a shutoff notice and scrambling to get money to pay it.

Look at the 700.00 as an investment in your son. He is worth every penny, and I assure you your ex is paying a lot more than that to care for your son every month. Be thankful he has a mom who cares and a dad in his life and do your very best to get along with your ex, cause the friction you are thinking of causing is only going to affect your son negatively. He needs to know he has two parents that get along and are looking after his best interests. Starting problems with your ex is going to come back to bite you in the ass and it may be something you will have a hard time correcting once you do decide to become adversarial with her.

If you are having a hard time making the payment, talk to her, lay out your finances honestly in front of her and say, this is why the 700.00 is too much for me. What do you think about trying to get it reduced until I am making better income. Tell her you want to do the best thing for your son, but do it in a way that is non adversarial. It will work out so much better in the end for you, and you will have a happy and mentally healthy son, which is/should be your one and only goal.

Please don't blindside her, the stress it will cause will be inadvertantly transferred to your son, and I am sure you don't want that.

Just my opinion from a single mom's perspective.

[oneklub]

LOL...I get your drift. And, considering that most children I know are raised on much less, I think you have a point. (And it's good to get some confirmation of that from a mom, "OregonMom.")

Seriously, the danger here lies in alienating her and damaging my relationship with my son.

The best thing, I think, would be for her to split with me the expenses she claimed in her bankruptcy petition...but that would mean that she would get much less money from me. (If you are interested, go to a child support calculator for any state and put some numbers in. You may be amazed at what is mandated by the courts...)

Actually, now that I think of it, it's $900 from me and $900 from her (50/50 split). That means, theoretically, that she should be paying a total $1800/month to raise our infant son. I find that hard to believe.