Source for detailed Means Test info

[Moneypenny]

Hi,

I have done the means test on my own, failed first round, then onto the second round still failed. An attorney I counsulted said I passed, but asked me questions like whether my cars were more than 8 years old and whether they had more than 75K miles on them. Stuff like that is not anywhere to be found on the means test itself. He seemed to be using a very detailed understanding of things that is different than can be found on the form itself or on the DOJ tables of allowable expenses, etc.

Is there any way I can find this other layer of information so i can be sure?

thanks,

Miss Moneypenny

[justbroke]

It's called practice and experience.

Your lawyer is asking your things to frame how he will address your bankruptcy. Cars that are 8 years old and over 75K miles are hard to trade in (because most major lenders won't lend for a car like that). Knowing this means that if you own those cars, then their value is really low and you can probably keep them without the Trustee wanting them (and you couldn't exempt them). This knowledge comes from experience and from working in that specific District and Trustee.

Other than perhaps reading the NoLo Book (Chapter 7), this forum is the best place to learn and gather knowledge. Even with books and this forum, you'll see things practiced differently amongst the U.S. Bankruptcy Court Districts. So many things apply on top of the Bankruptcy laws including underlying State non-bankruptcy laws and contract law (to mention a couple).

[Moneypenny]

no, this was part of the interview in which he was calculating the later stages of means tests. and i am well under my state exemptions in terms of property. there were a few questions like this that are no where on the means test form and seemed to be some kind of insider knowledge. There was another lawyer that was inputting the answers into his laptop and who had automated the means test into a computer program who came out with the answer "we are under." I am certain that I am not mistaken about this.

and yes, that is why I am posting here, to try and get some information about how I can be sure about the test on my own.

does anyone know if there are allowable expenses that are not explained on the means test form?

thanks,

Miss Moneypenny

[justbroke]

The lawyer may have been using BestCase (Bankruptcy) Software on his laptop. It basically has a series of screens and forms that comprise a Bankruptcy Petition. The software also, automatically, prepares and can even electronically submit the Bankruptcy Petition.

I have my own spreadsheet as well when performing simple calculations. When it comes to the Means Test, what goes into certain places is based alot on local practice. That's why some lawyers have a quick spreadsheet that has some specific items on it. This is particularly helpful when you're under the median.

I will wait with you to see who else chimes in on your question. Suffice it to say that my spreadsheet may not work in your District. I do use software as well to compare, but a lot of what's acceptable is based purely on experience.

Some Trustees will also publish a local guideline for practicing attorneys advising them of what they allow and don't allow. These Trustees publish this as a single two-sided "cheat sheet" or as a PDF document with very specific information about what they'll object to or not... down to the dollar amount. Again, this is a local custom and is not practiced everywhere. Check your Trustee's website to see if they publish their own attorney guidelines (or Trustee Guidelines).

[Moneypenny]

Some clues:

I downloaded the NOLO book which was only slightly more detailed than the form itself, but some clues were in there.

In one part it said "If you dont pass the means test you might have to do chapter 13. We recommend that you retain the services of an attorney to keep you under the means test" or some such, which indicates that attorneys do no a lot of tricks.

now for the old cars: in another part it said that some trustees and courts contest the 478 allowance for cars if you are not leasing or making payments, but that this is under dispute with papers filed arguing that old cars implies the necessity to buy a car in the future, which should be factored into means.

My guess is that the 8 year 75k question has something to do how this is being resolved locally or perhaps nationally.

i write here just for informational purposes for any onlookers. the nolo book is a slight improvement but is not going to be good enough for me:

it says that if you are not passing the means test you need a lawyer to get you past it, which is fine and worth every penny but i just wish i had access to some information so that i can reasonably believe that the lawyer will succeed. otherwise i just have to trust that he can do it, and if he cant, he's got my money and i have 13.

[chad9162]

Get a second opinion....like justbroke said your attorney knows what he can and can't do....

@Justbroke, Not to hijack the thread but I've noticed you mentioned being over and under the median determines what expenses you can use. So if I understand you correctly...if I'm over the median income I can use the "standard" expenses?? If you're under you have to use "actual" expenses?

I understand anything over the "standard" has to be justified and that mortgages and vehicles aren't necessarily standard but have to be reasonable.

[kennyo]

same here,moneypenny

i am going through the same thing right now.I am on my 3rd lawyer consultation and he told me it was close but it would be possible.The 1st 2 gave me the impression it was up in the air.The whole thing sounds like a crap shoot which is not how it should be when over a grand is being handed over to a lawyer.Also,every single one of these guys seemed bored with my interview.

[DebtStinks]

[W]here the taxpayer owns a vehicle that is currently over six years old and/or has reported mileage of 75,000 miles or more, an additional operating expense of $200 will generally be allowed for the collection period that remains after the loan/lease has been retired” plus the operating expense. Note: This also applies to those taxpayers that have no loan/lease on a vehicle over six years old and/or has reported mileage of 75,000 miles or more.

In many areas you can take a $200 ownership expense if you own your vehicle and it has over 75k miles or is over 6 years old. It doesn't look like this will fly if you try to take it in addition to the standard ownership expense when you have a lien on the vehicle.

This case is an interesting read on the topic: Case No. 07-26673

You might also give the means test wizard that I wrote a try... it makes running the means test much easier than what is out there (IMO).

Means Test Wizard

[OhioFiler]

Some clues:

I downloaded the NOLO book which was only slightly more detailed than the form itself, but some clues were in there.

In one part it said "If you dont pass the means test you might have to do chapter 13. We recommend that you retain the services of an attorney to keep you under the means test" or some such, which indicates that attorneys do no a lot of tricks.

now for the old cars: in another part it said that some trustees and courts contest the 478 allowance for cars if you are not leasing or making payments, but that this is under dispute with papers filed arguing that old cars implies the necessity to buy a car in the future, which should be factored into means.

My guess is that the 8 year 75k question has something to do how this is being resolved locally or perhaps nationally.

i write here just for informational purposes for any onlookers. the nolo book is a slight improvement but is not going to be good enough for me:

it says that if you are not passing the means test you need a lawyer to get you past it, which is fine and worth every penny but i just wish i had access to some information so that i can reasonably believe that the lawyer will succeed. otherwise i just have to trust that he can do it, and if he cant, he's got my money and i have 13.

The NOLO book is a very good resource and it's unlikely you'll find a better resource anywhere beyond your attorney. The truth is no one knows exactly what will happen when you appear before the trustee. Your case could come under scrutiny of the US Trustee. The trustee may have a vendetta against your attorney. Who knows.

What we do know is you look for an attorney you are comfortable with, hire him/her and be certain they take the time to explain the local rules as well as the federal laws to you. Searching for resources to challenge what your attorney tells you is not going to get you anywhere. Everyone here suggests you discuss your concernd with your attorney. What you read here is often opinion (usually well grounded, well reasoned opinion).

[Moneypenny]

that is the best means test calculator i have seen on the net, so uncluttered, although others are good too.

but it kind of proves my point: the information you give here about the old cars does not appear in your calculator. So, there is another layer of information that is concealed from me, and I am forced to accept that the lawyers who have that information can tell me whether I qualify or not, while when I try to do everything in my power to figure it out myself, I only can see that I do not qualify.

On another note, I am struck by the language that most commentators including NOLO use to describe the effects of the means test: they all say "the vast majority of people still qualify." But if the standard is the state median income, does not that mean that only exactly half of the population qualifies by definition? Or is it that those over the mean rarely need to file ch7? Or that many get by on the second layer of means test?

[OhioFiler]

that is the best means test calculator i have seen on the net, so uncluttered, although others are good too.

but it kind of proves my point: the information you give here about the old cars does not appear in your calculator. So, there is another layer of information that is concealed from me, and I am forced to accept that the lawyers who have that information can tell me whether I qualify or not, while when I try to do everything in my power to figure it out myself, I only can see that I do not qualify.

On another note, I am struck by the language that most commentators including NOLO use to describe the effects of the means test: they all say "the vast majority of people still qualify." But if the standard is the state median income, does not that mean that only exactly half of the population qualifies by definition? Or is it that those over the mean rarely need to file ch7? Or that many get by on the second layer of means test?

Schedules I and J and your attorney's knowledge of the local court are the ultimate arbiter of whether you qualify for a Chapter 7 or not.

[DebtStinks]

Ya I actually read about that $200 deduction after I wrote the means test wizard and I'm not sure how widespread it's acceptance is so I haven't added it.

"the vast majority of people still qualify."

What I believe this means is that for those that are over the mean income the vast majority will still qualify for chapter 7. It seems to me that most people that are way over the mean income also have very large secured debt payments that make it pretty easy to pass the means test.

Being under the mean income says the presumption of abuse does not arise so you do not have to take the means test. But this is only a presumption and if your schedules show that you have the disposable income to fund a chapter 13 then you could be forced into one regardless of the fact that you are under the mean income and didn't take the means test.

I think a big part of this "second layer of information" that you speak of is where the local experienced attorney comes into play. Every circuit is different, every court is different, and every judge and trustee is different. Knowing what you can push though without objection in your area is key if you are a complex case. That is going to be the value of having a good local attorney.