Western District Court of NY Local Laws

[Jenniferf82]

Thought I would add this in case any other unlucky soul cannot afford an attorney and must file "pro se" in this court district.

There are a lot of local laws that there does not seem to be any access to when it comes to filing for bankruptcy in this district. For instance, when filing form 1, on line 2 where it asks for all other names used by debtor you must add either AKA or FKA immediately after your previously used name. In the bankruptcy preparation books I've read, I've only seen the use of DBA.

Another oddity of this bankruptcy court is that I received a deficiency notice for not sending in a local form "certificate of service". Apparently, as the petitioner, you are also responsible for re-noticing your creditors and submitting the local form.

Another oddity of this court, is that you must resubmit copies of all of your original paperwork directly to the trustee the week before your 341 meeting. They are generally not happy with you just handing over your previously submitted forms at the 341 meeting. They also want the most recent statement for your cars, mortgage and the titles to any vehicles you may own. Though, when you receive the notice for the 341 meeting, mine clearly stated that all required paperwork was already received. So, I only brought copies of a few items I thought would be an issue.

If you call to ask about where you can find local laws or local forms, you will just receive the answer that they cannot provide you with legal advice. Last I checked, as a citizen I have a right to access of the laws I'm required to file.

That was pretty much the only reason they didn't dismiss my case at the 341 meeting. The secretary to the trustee told the trustee that all I had submitted was the schedules. I had brought my 341 meeting letter that showed that everything had been submitted. They retorted that all my paperwork was supposed to be copied and sent to the trustee the week before the meeting. I asked where I could find that local law and the trustee couldn't think of anywhere where I could have found that local law, so my meeting was continued to the end of May rather then dismissed.

Basically, it was just an opportunity to make fun of a pro se filer in front of a bunch of lawyers and clients. I filed everything required of me by federal law accurately enough where I only received deficiency notices for local laws. Local laws I didn't have access to, that the trustee acknowledged I didn't have access to.

Anyhow, hopefully this will help someone else.

[BKUniverse]

Good to know...

Thanks for your post - good items to know. I also live in WNY and filed in WNY, although with a lawyer.

[lrprn]

If you call to ask about where you can find local laws or local forms, you will just receive the answer that they cannot provide you with legal advice. Last I checked, as a citizen I have a right to access of the laws I'm required to file.

Yes, you do have a right to access the laws, and they are all easily accessible for free online. But here in the US you don't have a right to free interpretation of those same laws unless you are totally indigent or lucky enough to be in one of the rare local bk courts that provides resources to help pro se filers.

When you decide to file pro se, you are taking on the risk you will make mistakes a good bk lawyer wouldn't make because they understand the bk law and the local court's customs. You are very fortunate to have an understanding trustee.

[Jenniferf82]

I read the local laws that were available online for the Western District of New York. While they were extensive, they largely related to business bankruptcy law. The trustee could not think of anywhere I could have gotten access to the law affecting my case. I asked the trustee, that was what made him reconsider the dismissal, he couldn't think of where that law was available.

The lawyers I watched that went prior to my case made PLENTY of mistakes. They 'forgot' to list vehicles that their clients brought titles for that the clients had copies of the paperwork for. They forgot to tell their clients what wasn't exempt, one guy up there was completely blindsided when the trustee told him the tools he used to repair cars weren't exempt as he didn't have a business license in that trade nor did he usually work in that trade. He didn't know he had to come to a price agreement with the trustee. He had no idea that he was in danger of losing items he relied on as a part of his livelihood because of a technicality. I saw lawyers fail to list income tax as an exemption, who failed to find out when their clients received their return. I saw clients who had received AND spent their return only to find out that a large portion of it wasn't exempt and that they owe that money to the trustee immediately as part of their bankruptcy estate. I saw lawyers who forgot to list mortgage payments on the "transfers over $600" section, payments that they told their clients to make to get their mortgage current before filing.

I would say that pretty much every single case that went before me the lawyer had made mistakes and LARGE mistakes. I sat in that 341 meeting room from noon until my meeting at 5 pm.

The difference between me and them is that I don't call the trustee by his first name, he doesn't let me rearrange the order of my clients so we can all take smoke breaks at the same time and when I make a mistake I'm in danger of dismissal while his lawyer buddies just get told to add an amendment sheet which they were allowed to hand in while they were sitting there.

I didn't go to law school for 8+ years. I don't make $100,000 + per year. I make $20,000 per year when I'm lucky enough in this economy to be employed. I couldn't afford $1200 for a lawyer because I am TRULY in need of bankruptcy relief. The woman who went right before me transferred property, 5 homes, exactly 13 months before filing for bankruptcy to friends of hers for $1 per piece. The trustee let that one go through. The woman stated that she didn't know what 'real property' was when her lawyer asked her about it. So, he was up there explaining, during the 341 meeting, that real property meant real estate (basically). Then, she had a bunch of transfers to list off. They filled out the amendment right there.
My problem with bankruptcy law is that the only people who can file are people who have $1200 lying around to pay a lawyer. If I had $1200 lying around, I would still be trying to make it and pay my bills. I'm not trying to exempt a BMW and transferring all my property 13 months in advance of filing. I didn't quit my job 6 months into the year so that my income fell below the appropriate level to file for chapter 7 so that I could ditch my debt and not repay my creditors.

My problem with bankruptcy law is that the common person who really needs to file for bankruptcy cannot file on their own. The people who need bankruptcy relief the most are the ones denied access to it because they can't afford a decent attorney. The people in that court room who were taking advantage of bankruptcy were largely people who were just barely skating through without being flagged for abuse of the system.
I don't need interpretation of the law. All I need is ACCESS to the law. My filing was complete with all things appropriately filed as related to federal bankruptcy law. I had NO deficiency notices for anything other then local laws. That should say something about my ability to interpret the law and apply it to my case.

I didn't realize this forum was also biased against pro se filers. I was merely trying to share my experience so that others may be helped in their filing.
I didn't need anymore mocking, I got enough of that in the courthouse.

[kathy4530050]

Hey Jennifer--I think you'd make a pretty good lawyer! I wouldn't mind having you on MY side. Best of luck.

[Bex]

wow that bites

well, you know, if a "little girl" can do it, that causes them to look at the reality of the job they do--they are highly educated and charge exorbitant fees to perform tasks that, by and large, are merely tedious.

I sense from your post (both content and style) that you are very bright and very young --could be way off, that's happened before (like when I bought my house, but that's another story!)


So you threatened them where they live.

My past experience indicates that:

had you been male
OR
had you been older (obviously beyond childbearing years)
OR
had you obviously not been capable of interpretation of the law


it would have been totally different--probably would have been sweet as pie. That sucks tho--this is the time when you reeeeeally don't need someone ELSE trying to demoralize you. And that is NOT what the courts are supposed to do--when it's all said and done (to avoid any retaliation, of course) file a grievance.

Good for you for standing up to the bullies and getting what you need. Look out for yourself--(sometimes) no one else will

[music12]

clerks are told they cannot give legal advice, and they often err on the side of "caution" by withholding procedural advice as well. but they are *required* to give procedural advice. if a lawyer called the clerk of the bk court and asked exactly what Jennifer asked, i.e. where to find the local laws, the clerk would promptly tell them.

i disagree with some posts on this thread that seem to say that the Jennifer was seeking any interpretation of the laws/rules. she wasn't. and i also disagree that these rules are easily available online. first of all, Jennifer sounds very intelligent, and if they were online, she would certainly have found them. to be sure, i went online to the western district of ny, and found none of the so-called rules the trustee seemed to require of Jennifer. maybe there was some "internal" memo between the trustee and their lawyer-friends, handed out during the smoking break, and they just forgot they never made it public.

also: given your income, i think you could probably qualify for free legal advice or legal representation by your local legal aid office. if you haven't tried that (though I suspect you did), maybe they'll help you with anything else that arises from now on. not that you need them as far as understanding the law goes, but practically the protection of having a lawyer should not be underestimated, as you noticed.

and finally, to the outsiders - us - it seems awfully strange that all these people hang out together etc. . but it just doesn't seem strange to them at all. even worse, it seems standard that lawyers have off-the-record conversations with judges - not just in bk, but everywhere. i once spoke to an attorney about this illegal practice. the attorney said it happens, and that it's not really a bad thing. seriously!?! it's not like pro se people can hang out with the judge, so obviously it's unfair. so if you think the courts are biased against you because you are pro se, you are absolutely, totally correct.