Who has actually had CC challenge them in BK?

[Brighterdays]

Hey all, I have been lurking in the shadows for awile now. This site is really a godsent. I really appreciate all the help it has given to confused and scared people like me.

So as the Title implies, I was wondering how many people have actually had a CC company contest any of their charges and what where their cicumstances and the outcome.

[dingdong]

My weenie-head ex landlord filed BK after he stopped paying his mortgage on the house I was renting from him, so I followed his BK case on PACER.



He had made charges in the amount of about 8000.00 ( can't remember the exact amount) fairly close to his filing date. The CC co took all of the charges filed in the 90 days prior to his filing, which was around 5-6 thousand (including a BT of 3000.00 to his checking, ) the CC filed an AP claiming fraud based on insolvancy at the time of charging. They ended up settling for 2500.00 with a stip two days prior to the hearing. So it seems they were mostly concerned with the BT amount. The other charges looked like clothes and personal items based on the retailers they listed that were charged on the CC.

Just thought it might give you a real life example

[CCCrazy]

I'm curious about Brighterdays question too...the landlord in dingdong's example was just stupid or ignorant...8K charges in the 90 days before filing? I hope it was ignorance. But are there any examples from anyone about APs filed with debtors who had stopped using there credit cards 6 months or longer before filing?

[Brighterdays]

Yeah, any charges within 90 days are just begging for trouble. My question is geared towards those outside 90 days.

I know this is one of the biggest question on a lot of peoples minds. That is why I started the thread. I am not trying to scam, or defraud the creditors. I just wanted to know if anyone had actually been "called out" by the CC company. The rest of my case is squeeky clean(no Asset, and way below the means).

I will be filing in September, to give at least 6 months time between charges. I have no cash advances, 1 B-transfer(2200), and about 6k in charges(none over $500 individual) in the last 4 months. I am without job currently and with our 14% unemployment rate, it might be awhile until i get one. With that said, I am just trying to stock up on staples(clothes,food...) and get my vehicle in shape(tires,oil,battery.) So like others I want to know what red flags the CC companies are looking for. Not to plan on what I am going to spend, just to ease my mind on what I have spent.

Here is a question/thought: If they(CC) object to one or more of my charges(outside 90days), then it appears I/you have the opportunity to negotiate it down or try to call their bluff. So what do you really have to lose? Why not get your life in order for your new start; with the understanding that you "might" have pay it back. Again what do you have to lose? For some the goal is to be bulletproof, my goal is to survive and be ready to start over.

[ready2puke]

I've had several very large B.T's and one cash advance (from one of those BT checks). The last one was done June 08. My attorney wants me to wait, as he is afraid of objections. He says he sees it all the time. Its so hard to wait since my life is on major hold until I get this over with. Not sure if I can wait out the year or not.
No one said this was easy....good luck

[catleg]

I think there is some validity to the idea of waiting for the OC to charge off and sell the balance to a JDB, should take care of this problem.

As in many things, patience is usually rewarded.

[Brighterdays]

Readytopuke(LOL), I feel your pain. I am in a similiar situation. I have budgeted enough to keep paying my CC for another 3 or 4 months to "hopefully" keep them at bay.

Catleg, Great point, If I read you right, You are saying it's better to have the CC company charge off yiour account before filing BK? If so does the original CC co. still have the right to object to your charges?
Now that is the question of the day!!!!!!

[catleg]

Not just charge off but sell off. Then they have no right to proof of claim and therefore not much right to say anything. This is really Big Boy's idea but I like it.

In other words, they have 2 opportunities to take a swipe at you. First is to sue you in court and possibly allege fraud, and second is as a creditor in BK. Beyond that they wouldn't have any standing in any legal venue for any fraud charge.

[slam22]

We had a cash advance of $25k on a CC seven months before we filed and did not recieve an objection. Every case is different so I don't really think there is a hard and fast rule as to when a creditor will or will not object.

[CCCrazy]

slam, why did it take so long for your BK to close? Were you an asset case and it took that long to distribute the money to your creditors?

[TEW]

I think the CC company will have a harder case to prove on BT CUZ its not new debt. remember they have to PROVE it was fraud and not you just trying to bail yourself out. I think that landlord should have held out. I think in fact the a better they would have been able to prove fraud on new charges.

[dingdong]

The whole point of the CC company's objection is when they looked at the debtors petition /schedules ( which by the way they used as evidencce to prove fraud-specifically debtors petition is exhibit A) they looked at their income and expenses for the last 6 months and said essntially.

(And I am paraphrasing what the CC stated in the AP)
"
Hey at this point ( whatever date- due to your expenses and income) you were insolvent. The agreement you had with us stated that you were to be in a certain financial situation ( which you as debtor agreed upon and told us about when you applied for credit)

To continue charging on the card , you are stating that you are still in this state of an "ok" financial situation, but....


Your petition states you were insolvant, you charged anyway, whammo fraud charge.

That is basically the gist of what the CC company stated in their AP complaint against my LL.

If, when you made the charges, you were OK financially, but say 2 months later you lost your job and still made charges, then you may have problems, and that date was within 6 months of the charges. IF you made the charges, made payments, then lost your job, you would probably be in a better position to fight the AP.
Just my theory, but you would have a better chance fighting the AP, if you weren't insolvant at the time of making the charges.

Your petition can be used against you in an cerditor AP filing.

[Brighterdays]

The whole point of the CC company's objection is when they looked at the debtors petition /schedules ( which by the way they used as evidencce to prove fraud-specifically debtors petition is exhibit A) they looked at their income and expenses for the last 6 months and said essntially.

(And I am paraphrasing what the CC stated in the AP)
"
Hey at this point ( whatever date- due to your expenses and income) you were insolvent. The agreement you had with us stated that you were to be in a certain financial situation ( which you as debtor agreed upon and told us about when you applied for credit)

To continue charging on the card , you are stating that you are still in this state of an "ok" financial situation, but....
Your petition states you were insolvant, you charged anyway, whammo fraud charge.
That is basically the gist of what the CC company stated in their AP complaint against my LL.
If, when you made the charges, you were OK financially, but say 2 months later you lost your job and still made charges, then you may have problems, and that date was within 6 months of the charges. IF you made the charges, made payments, then lost your job, you would probably be in a better position to fight the AP.
Just my theory, but you would have a better chance fighting the AP, if you weren't insolvant at the time of making the charges.

Your petition can be used against you in an cerditor AP filing.

Good points, my situation is: I have been working under the table(cash) fixing up houses for the last year and a half, while I went back to get my degree. On paper I show a big fat zero income. My balances are only 1/3 of my credit limit. Thanks to the folks on here I wanna nip this in the butt before it gets out of hand.

I just don't want the CC co. saying I was insolvent for the last two years. I do have 21k in an ira and have been current on all my bills. I just don't see the light at the end of the tunnel here in Toledo with 14% unemployment. I am not trying to screw over the CC companies, but I wanna just start over clean.

I am wondering if I should go ahead and file taxes on my job(if possible). I have enough deductions to offset the actual taxes. I would probably have to pay state and local. I am going to paly with the numbers this weekend just to see.

I don't have the "bozacks" to do what SLAM22 did with 25k. My point earlier was, even if you get called out for it. you can always pay it back, Right? Maybe even negotiate it down. So you take 5k cashout and then the cc says"hey wait, you can't do that" then you pay back the 5k or negotiate it to 3k or so. Seems like a no lose situation. Again I am not going to do it as it isn't my style.

[enin]

I'm pretty much resolved to proceed with filing after a 5 month wait
following several balance transfers of 6k to 8k, each to different cc's.
At that point, it's up to the cc's lawyer(s) to file an objection, based
(presumably) on fraud(?), which they would have to prove if I were
to choose to oppose, which I would.

If an AP were, in fact, brought, they would likely claim, citing my petition,
that I was "insolvent" at the time the balance transfers were made, and,
were, therefore, obtained "fraudulently".

In reply, I could, at least testify sincerely, under oath, that at the time
that these debts were incurred, I had every hope that my financial situation
would improve(if perhaps naively), that I had every intention of paying them
in full, and the thought of bankruptcy had never crossed my mind.

Worst case scenario: They file/win win an AP (heaven forbid), and their
debt(s) are not discharged. Still, I won't be liable for their legal costs,
the rest of the case remains intact and the other uncontested debts will be
discharged.

One never knows, but if I had to bet, I'd have to bet that in evaluating
the particulars of my financial condition (then and now): nearly no income,
no wages togarnish, and a profound absence of assets, it would not appear
to be a cost/time effective strategy for the cc's lawyer to take it all the way
to a full blown AP case.
Stay tuned, right?

The irony is that the above listed factors (nearly no income, no wages to
garnish, and a profound absence of assets) serve both to create the basis for
an objection (presumption that, at the time the debt(s) were incurred, I
should have known I'd be unable to pay them), while at the same time
presenting a very dismal prospect of actually getting anything, assuming
they file, and win an AP.
...a classic case where good news-bad news are one, and the same.

[Brighterdays]

I'm pretty much resolved to proceed with filing after a 5 month wait
following several balance transfers of 6k to 8k, each to different cc's.
At that point, it's up to the cc's lawyer(s) to file an objection, based
(presumably) on fraud(?), which they would have to prove if I were
to choose to oppose, which I would.

If an AP were, in fact, brought, they would likely claim, citing my petition,
that I was "insolvent" at the time the balance transfers were made, and,
were, therefore, obtained "fraudulently"..........

.

Sound like my situation. I have a house but I am letting it go.

Have you been paying your CC? if not how long after the BT did you stop?

Anybody every Bk'ed on Best Buy? If so what are they like?