Presumption of abuse

[banca rotta]

yes- we are over the income and discharging lots of debt.

There are many that are over the median income with lots of debt that can still discharge it in a chapter 7. Not that this does any good now but did you legally "pad your expenses" with everything allowable, such as life, health, car insurance, etc. or reasonable continued charity deductions?

[indigoblue]

My hubby and I are facing this as well. Our income was well above median for our state, and then he lost his job a few days after filing and we converted to a 7. I'm hoping once all is reviewed the presumption of abuse will be dismissed.

[curiouscat]

Even though it may feel like you're being accused of being dishonest or as though you've done something wrong, you can maintain your sanity by understanding that you are at a certain point in a flow chart posted on the bulletin board above someone's desk. The UST does everything according to procedure, and reading up on the subject will at least give you an idea of what may happen next.

Case law varies from district to district, but you can at least get a sense of some of the UST maneuvering by looking at cases like these:

https://www.nysd.uscourts.gov/courtweb/pdf/B05TXSC/06-04272.PDF

There's a good 707(b) flow chart here:

classes.lls.edu/spring2007/bank-weinberg/documents/means-test.ppt

PM me if you don't have PowerPoint and I'll send it to you as an attachment.

Hang in there!

Thank you for this information! The flow chart analogy was wonderful and VERY encouraging. I'll try to keep my chin up.

[curiouscat]

Even though it may feel like you're being accused of being dishonest or as though you've done something wrong, you can maintain your sanity by understanding that you are at a certain point in a flow chart posted on the bulletin board above someone's desk. The UST does everything according to procedure, and reading up on the subject will at least give you an idea of what may happen next.

Case law varies from district to district, but you can at least get a sense of some of the UST maneuvering by looking at cases like these:

https://www.nysd.uscourts.gov/courtweb/pdf/B05TXSC/06-04272.PDF

There's a good 707(b) flow chart here:

classes.lls.edu/spring2007/bank-weinberg/documents/means-test.ppt

PM me if you don't have PowerPoint and I'll send it to you as an attachment.

Hang in there!

Sorry to be a pest, but a question on the flow chart. The last box says "Burden of Proof on Debtor to Rebut...& UST must show only "abuse" (not "substantial").

What does this mean? I'm googling now & will try to self-educate, but I don't understand the possibly loaded meaning of "substantial".

[Fallonedward]

My hubby and I are facing this as well. Our income was well above median for our state, and then he lost his job a few days after filing and we converted to a 7. I'm hoping once all is reviewed the presumption of abuse will be dismissed.

Indigo: We have something similar. Hubby has been out for 4 months now and no job on the horizon. If we wait 6 months for the look back we will qualify for a 7 because now our income is way below the median in our state. Since we have no idea how long it will take to find new employment, (most of our friends took from 8 months to 2 years to find new jobs) we are trying to wait it out.

Since this is really our financial picture not what the hubby used to make, I want to wait till our 6 month window comes into play

[billycool]

depending on your 'story'...

....I would definitely keep moving forward. I got hit by the UST not for 'abuse', but for 'totality of circumstances' on Day 60 after the 341. I fired off a long email to my atty going through the UST's motion point by point, which he then passed along to her via email and phone call. A day later she withdrew the Motion to Extend to Dismiss.."

One thing I've come to realize is that the UST's really don't like going to court unless they're pretty sure they're going to win......which means it's *very, very important* that you have a credible lawyer with actual experience in front of bankruptcy judges.

If you're case is good, it essentially becomes a game of chicken, I think....

[Fallonedward]

yes- we are over the income and discharging lots of debt.

What if you are under the median income even with UI but would be discharging lots of debt, would this be considered abuse?