Bad News, Now What? Dismiss? Convert to 13??

[Flamingo]

My assumption was they had *formulas* for everything, just like they had formulas for figuring out my expenses. (The amount of certain expenses being less than what they actually are because of the "average" it's based on.) I guess I shouldn't have assumed. What I did was a scan of the filing. I guess being naive was my mistake.

BP

Well, it's too late now to do anything about that so Monday a.m., call your attorney's office and see what they say - and also see Banca Rotta's posting to you. I would be prepared to ask that attorney several questions as to why this occurred and what can be done now. If it is mistake, the attorney would rectify the situation and handle everything with no additional charge to you. Keep us informed.

[bruisedpeach]

It almost sounds like this is what happened.

If so the best move for the OP would be to dismiss and start over in six to eight months with a better attorney...

I did sign filings, but the financial breakdown was not explained or gone over. I just don't understand how they could have had such a difference and that it wasn't for a reason. It makes me wonder why. The letter from the trustee yesterday made it sound like it was *my* mistake. I had nothing to do with filling out the paperwork. I supplied the things they asked for and they did the rest.

BP

[bruisedpeach]

Well, it's too late now to do anything about that so Monday a.m., call your attorney's office and see what they say - and also see Banca Rotta's posting to you. I would be prepared to ask that attorney several questions as to why this occurred and what can be done now. If it is mistake, the attorney would rectify the situation and handle everything with no additional charge to you. Keep us informed.

Thanks, Flamingo. Sigh....

BP

[StartingOver08]

I did sign filings, but the financial breakdown was not explained or gone over. I just don't understand how they could have had such a difference and that it wasn't for a reason. It makes me wonder why. The letter from the trustee yesterday made it sound like it was *my* mistake. I had nothing to do with filling out the paperwork. I supplied the things they asked for and they did the rest.
BP

When you go in to the 341 - that is why the trustee asks you if you signed the petition and if you understand it. You are responsible for the information provided by the attorney. Sounds like the attorney did not understand your expenses and changed some of the expenses to reflect either state or federal allowances.

Do you have proof of your expenses (receipts) that you can provide to show what your actual expenses are? You need to get with your attorney and revamp the filing - I hope you can without having to wait 6 months to file again. The petition is the key - its the main thing the Trustee has to review supported by other documentation. If the financials go in wrong the Trustee looks to you - not the attorney.

[banca rotta]

I did sign filings, but the financial breakdown was not explained or gone over. I just don't understand how they could have had such a difference and that it wasn't for a reason. It makes me wonder why. The letter from the trustee yesterday made it sound like it was *my* mistake. I had nothing to do with filling out the paperwork. I supplied the things they asked for and they did the rest.
BP

Many, many here know exactly what you are going through. You supplied the attorney's office with the info and let them do the rest and this is the end result.

Sorry to say but you have to do all the work and just use the attorney as window dressing to sit next to you at the 341 meeting.

When he is wrong YOU pay the price. Just like trusting a bad accountant to do your taxes. YOU are still accountable.

Good luck.

[nervousss]

However, it is my understanding that she cannot list her current debts again in six months if she refiles. Am I correct? The trustee was raking a couple over the coals right before my 341 for trying to include debt from a previous bk that had been dismissed. She said they couldn't. Perhaps that is just in my state?

All I know is you need to get your lawyer to work for that money. He needs to fix this!

[jeb]

I do not get support from the father--he left when I was pregnant--and that is not an option. - BP

I don't know what state you are in but no matter which one it is you should file against the father. In this day and age, the courts are taking a dim view of a parent not supporting their children - and back payments should be a big help to you. - jb

[bruisedpeach]

I know what rights I have as far as child support, but in my state, visitation is also part of that deal. I do not choose to pursue that for this reason. It would not be in the best interest of my child, who is now 13, to establish a "relationship" with a person who had no desire to be a part of our lives. Someone who still doesn't. I made this choice very early on, and I don't agree with "sticking it to someone" 13 years after the fact. I've seen the outcome of this in my sister's life and in her children's lives, and I don't want that for my child. Children need stability. And regardless of my financial situation right now, that is the one thing that I've given my daughter for 13 years. (Holidays, weekends, etc. at *one* house....one set of rules... and someone who sees her as a blessing, not a pain in the ***.)

Sorry, but I feel very strongly about this.

BP

[filingin08]

I understand strong feelings. I too have strong feelings. They are quite the opposite of yours... Please take this with the $.02 it is offered...

It takes two to make a child. Unless you bought the sperm from a bank, he knew or should have known the consequences of his actions. By not pursuing child support, you're letting him off free and clear. What message does that send to your child? That it is okay to be irresponsible? That others will pick up the pieces? That actions don't matter?

If I were you, I would pursue support - even minimal. Chances are, if he doesn't want anything to do with the child now, what makes you think that just by paying support will somehow change his mind?

[bruisedpeach]

This issue was pursued when my child was two. He is very much a belligerant person who believes that he is "owed" visitation if he "has to pay." Yes, it takes two to make a baby and two to be responsible, but in my opinion, money isn't everything. Money doesn't make him a dad. Money doesn't make him nice or agreeable or mature. There isn't enough money in the world that would make his influence in her life a *good*thing. Trust me. I know this guy. You don't. Adults make mistakes. I made a mistake. My daughter shouldn't have to pay for it by having him involved in her life. It wasn't her mistake and it shouldn't be her that pays the consequences. It would not be a good thing. I don't want this forum to be a debate as to whether I should "make him pay." I've had others criticize my choice (and his choice, frankly) in the past.

BP

[Flamingo]

This issue was pursued when my child was two. He is very much a belligerant person who believes that he is "owed" visitation if he "has to pay." Yes, it takes two to make a baby and two to be responsible, but in my opinion, money isn't everything. Money doesn't make him a dad. Money doesn't make him nice or agreeable or mature. There isn't enough money in the world that would make his influence in her life a *good*thing. Trust me. I know this guy. You don't. Adults make mistakes. I made a mistake. My daughter shouldn't have to pay for it by having him involved in her life. It wasn't her mistake and it shouldn't be her that pays the consequences. It would not be a good thing. I don't want this forum to be a debate as to whether I should "make him pay." I've had others criticize my choice (and his choice, frankly) in the past.

BP

It is what it is and you do what you gotta do but, in your situation, here is what you stated in your initial posting: "What worries me is... for years I have been neglecting MY health and necessities to raise my daughter alone. All of my major appliances are over 10 years old. My TV as well. I have one kidney, and I haven't been getting the medical care I need. My fear is that under Chapter 13, I would be living a hand-to-mouth existence for the next 5 years, and that terrifies me. Which option, at this point, would be the best option? (Would give me the most cash flow so I don't have to live in fear!)." You wouldn't have to neglect yourself so much if you had child support for your daughter to help pay for her expenses. By law, her father is responsible for her. There is help and guidance within your state agency that handles child support that would ensure there are no issues involved if you have concerns and you and your child would not have to suffer. You are keeping things from your daughter by not obtaining the support she is entitled to. Plus it would give you more money for yourself. I an not saying this to judge you; I am telling you just like it is. The child should not have to suffer for disagreements/whatever between two former parents. The state can get you the proper support for your child. Do you have a custody agreement signed by both of you indicating that he does not have to pay child support? If not, it's a shame to keep those benefits from your daughter.

Those of us on here commenting on this are just trying to give you options to offset your financial woes and to benefit you...not to preach...best of luck to you and your daughter.

[jeb]

First, why should those that you have debts with have to eat it - and, in the long run, everyone that does business with them - when YOU may have a way to pay them?

Second, your statements are all too common in bad relationships - YOU are pissed and you take it out on HIM, and your child.

YOU don't think he is a good person - so be it - but you can take this to the bank, at some point in time your child is going to go looking for the father and may have resentment towards you because of what you are doing.

Virtually every study that has been done comes up with the same end - ANY father is better that NO father. - jb

[bruisedpeach]

Any father is better than no father? That's a funny thing to say.

No, I am not pissed.... dear, it's been 14 years. I don't talk to him, he doesn't talk to me. We don't even know where the other one is, so there is no "taking it out" on anyone. I hold no bitterness and no vengeance. If I did, I *would* have done what all of you are suggesting. Hit him where it hurts, for it was money that caused him to leave in the first place.

I have seen what the courts can do...I have seen it time and time and again, and the victims are the children. I'm sorry if all of you don't agree...thank you, Flamingo. You were not judgmental and I appreciate that.

Jeb, on the other hand.... you are making judgments that you have no right to make. My daughter is old enough to ask questions...she has asked many, and my answers are neutral. I don't pass judgment on her father. It is what it is.... he made his choices. I merely reassure her that she is a blessing to me, and he is the one who is missing out by his OWN choice, not mine.

Thanks, all...but I think it's better I don't post here any further. I didn't come here to be condemned for making what I believe was the best choice for my child. It wasn't about the money... it was about her WELL-BEING EMOTIONALLY. I can make sacrifices if it means that she can be protected from a harmful influence. Those who do know me and know him...they know I made the right choice for us. There is no "one size fits all" solution in this world.

BP

[Help!]

A statement of presumed abuse is not necessarily the end. The UST has reviewed your petition and is challenging you to demonstrate that you do not have sufficient disposable income to fund a Ch. 13. If you're willing to do the work gathering documentation (and it is *a lot* of work, no help from the attorney), your compelling special circumstances may be enough to tip this in your favor. You have nothing to lose at this point, so unless you'd rather go the 13 route I think you should go for it.

It's almost like haggling with the sales manager in a car dealership. A petition is "a proposal" of sorts, and now the sales guy has come back to you with some ridiculous monthly payment you know you can't afford. The UST recalculated your disposable income based the only information they have to go by - your petition.

So, the next step is to get more *quality* information into the hands of the UST as quickly as possible, keeping in mind they have only 30 days until they have to file a motion to dismiss, convert, or to allow your Ch. 7 to proceed. The UST has gone through your means test and Schedules I & J with a fine toothed comb. You need to do the same, but this time put in YOUR REAL numbers, not the ones the attorney tried to spoon-feed you. Back them up with receipts, insurance quotes, whatever factual data you can find. If nothing like this exists, write up a statement that explains how you came up with the dollar figure you did for each expense.

If your medical expenses are huge, you have to explain why the expenses are "reasonable and necessary" and provide an explanation of how you came up with the dollar figure. This one sounds like a slam dunk based on what you've said. Document that you have only one kidney and document the cost of proper medical care given this condition. A doctor should be able to write a letter on your behalf explaining this. Attach to that a written, signed, and dated statement explaining that you have held off on getting this care while trying to keep up with your other financial obligations, including repaying your debt. Explain why you feel this expense is reasonable and necessary, including (of course) that you are your child's only parent.

Do this with all of your expenses and then contact your attorney, tell him/her you want to amend your petition to more accurately reflect your expenses and then hand him/her your stack of supporting documentation (after you've photocopied it) explaining that you want this sent to the UST for consideration. I would even ask the attorney to call the UST right then and there to let them know the information is coming. I'd follow up on PACER to make sure the petition was amended and I'd get confirmation that the UST received the documentation.

Keep in mind that despite how it may feel, the UST is not out to get you. They simply have evaluated the information given to them in the form of a petition and have had to file a required statement based on policies and procedures. Give them more to work with so they can consider your "totality of circumstances" instead of taking your means test and schedules at face value.

[BKParalegal]

Thank you Help! for getting this thread back on topic, I have never seen digressions of digressions as much as I do here and you are absolutely correct in your answer. And to answer the question about income, in the means test, the income is an average of the last 6 months, and on Schedule I, typically your most recent average paystub is used, so that is where the discrepancy will lie. Also, you take allowances in your J and on the means test for necessary medical expenses that have not been performed due to lack of funds. I am sure with your situation you should be able to come up with enough additional expenses to wipe out all or most of the disposable. Do Not and I repeat do not dismiss your case without amending the schedules first.

Good Luck