HUGE UPDATE: Happy Ira, 341, the UST, the 707(b) and the outcome for all.
Hi all. PINCH ME--I dealt with the UST and lived to tell about it. Let this posting give everyone on these boards strength and courage! Read on.
I have been *extremely quiet* on here for the past two months as I had been busy battling my US Trustee (link to an earlier posting with gruesome details on my case: http://www.bkforum.com/showthread.ph...&highlight=707 ) New people won't know me, but others will surely recognize my name... for better or worse, do we want to be remembered on these boards?
Summary of case: Filed Ch 7 in Aug 2008, 341 in Sep 2008. The BK Trustee at 341 asked a few basic questions, but quickly realized he had no issues with my case and there were no assets (I think he actually had a look of pity and mercy in his eyes when he heard about the details) and was about to say case closed, but the US Trustee (who seemed like a masterful poker player) jumped in and requested additional specific documents.
After initial UST review, I checked PACER and saw he filed this on the following day:
"The United States Trustee has reviewed all materials filed by the debtor and has determined that the debtor's case is presumed to be an abuse under Section 707(b). Filed by U.S. Trustee. filed by [UST Trial Attorney] on behalf of United States Trustee."
Yuck, right? Exactly. Panic? Wrong.
I poured my heart and soul into trying to resolve it. I promptly shipped the UST the documents he needed. On the surface, I am a difficult case. Like some others on here, I am *way* over the mean income, even though I "pass" the Means Test (Form 22A).... just about automatically flagged as presumed abuse. In some cases, there is indeed abuse. But in other cases, even though income is above mean, there are extenuating circumstances that cause it. My income is more than two times the state median, and my credit cards were well over $100k. I was planning to re-affirm car and mortgages.
So - where was I? Lesseee.... in addition to my 341 lasting for a grueling 30 minutes (OMG--it was like living life frozen in time!), an adjournment date was set for me and the US Trustee to meet again (ugh). On top of all that, the "60 day" timeline was bumped to 120 days by the UST (I know, it doesn't get any prettier than this, folks), and and and the UST assigned a bankruptcy analyst and a Trial Attorney to deal with the case.
Despondent. I turned to these boards to advice. Met with my attorney. Sent the docs to the UST, added a cover note. Filed an amended Sched I&J as per the UST. Followed all the requests and provided as honest answers as possible.
As I wrote in a posting a few months ago: In my humble opinion, the USTs, in general, are quite smart. They know if someone is trying to pull a fast one or if there is legitimate need for a Chapter 7. How do they know this? Well, it speaks to, in non-legal terms, proving and convincing them of whatever mitigating factors are present in the case. I had issues (disabled baby, spouse not able to work, etc.)
And although I have an attorney, I took the time to sit down and write a concise and pointed letter to the UST Trial Attorney explaining that while my income was way over means test, there were specific reasons why the Chapter 7 should apply (and I then listed them along with attached documentation). My attorney also followed up with a couple calls to the UST to address what/if there are issues still open. (By the way, if you are in NY/NJ I *highly* recommend my attorney who is extremely knowledgeable, knows the BK Trustees and was instrumental in speaking with the UST several times. This atty is worth his weight in gold even if you do not have a major issue. Please private message me if you want his name.)
I learned that I would *not* recommend trying to battle the UST on the face of the abuse. Meaning "hey, you are wrong, there is no abuse". While in the end, it does come down to abuse or not (if 707(b) is filed against someone), it's just a roundabout way of addressing the UST's issues. Make sense?
I also saw that it was critical (and this is true for people filing/will soon file) to become knowledgable about BK stuff. Ideally, you do this *before* you have to file. Of course, by the time you realize you need to file and make it to these boards, it's probably too late to start cleaning up bank acct, etc. Not to worry. I was clueless about all this stuff, too, at that juncture.
Also - do not freak out or panic at any time. Seldom is anything in bankruptcy very very urgent. While there is indeed a timeline, it usually spans weeks (and possible months), not hours. Remain calm. Be honest. Consult your atty or paralegal, read these boards. Buy the NOLO book on Ch 7 (even if you have an atty).
Most importantly, figure out how to manage your life, income/expenses on lower spending/no evil credit cards.
SOOOOOO..... In the end, the UST withdrew the 707(b) presumption of abuse before it ever came down to going to court, the BK Trustee filed the paperwork to be released from his duty, etc. I did have to wait an additional 60 days on top of the usual 60 days since that paperwork was filed earlier on... so I am now a few days past the last date for objections (there have not been any posted to PACER). My PACER listing is very quiet (last filing was the BK "Report of No Distribution.")
I assume it's just a bit of paperwork and the clerk who needs to enter it on the docket... so I am eager to see the discharge status (there are no flags or anything)... I am in NY, which is surely overrun with BK filings, so perhaps it will take a couple days. If I do not see the discharge on PACER soon, my atty will call in another week about the discharge.
In case this post was not coherent, if anyone has any questions about dealing with UST or whatever, I would willingly help on here. Please post or message me. Naturally, many people on here are quite knowledgable, but I did live through it and would share more of my experience if you need to know for your own case.
I appreciate the inputs and support received over the past few months from HHM, TEW, biotechsolution, BROKENN, AngelinaCat/Hub, Jessiegirl, countless others I am forgetting.
I am cautiously awaiting the end of this.
I have been *extremely quiet* on here for the past two months as I had been busy battling my US Trustee (link to an earlier posting with gruesome details on my case: http://www.bkforum.com/showthread.ph...&highlight=707 ) New people won't know me, but others will surely recognize my name... for better or worse, do we want to be remembered on these boards?
Summary of case: Filed Ch 7 in Aug 2008, 341 in Sep 2008. The BK Trustee at 341 asked a few basic questions, but quickly realized he had no issues with my case and there were no assets (I think he actually had a look of pity and mercy in his eyes when he heard about the details) and was about to say case closed, but the US Trustee (who seemed like a masterful poker player) jumped in and requested additional specific documents.
After initial UST review, I checked PACER and saw he filed this on the following day:
"The United States Trustee has reviewed all materials filed by the debtor and has determined that the debtor's case is presumed to be an abuse under Section 707(b). Filed by U.S. Trustee. filed by [UST Trial Attorney] on behalf of United States Trustee."
Yuck, right? Exactly. Panic? Wrong.
I poured my heart and soul into trying to resolve it. I promptly shipped the UST the documents he needed. On the surface, I am a difficult case. Like some others on here, I am *way* over the mean income, even though I "pass" the Means Test (Form 22A).... just about automatically flagged as presumed abuse. In some cases, there is indeed abuse. But in other cases, even though income is above mean, there are extenuating circumstances that cause it. My income is more than two times the state median, and my credit cards were well over $100k. I was planning to re-affirm car and mortgages.
So - where was I? Lesseee.... in addition to my 341 lasting for a grueling 30 minutes (OMG--it was like living life frozen in time!), an adjournment date was set for me and the US Trustee to meet again (ugh). On top of all that, the "60 day" timeline was bumped to 120 days by the UST (I know, it doesn't get any prettier than this, folks), and and and the UST assigned a bankruptcy analyst and a Trial Attorney to deal with the case.
Despondent. I turned to these boards to advice. Met with my attorney. Sent the docs to the UST, added a cover note. Filed an amended Sched I&J as per the UST. Followed all the requests and provided as honest answers as possible.
As I wrote in a posting a few months ago: In my humble opinion, the USTs, in general, are quite smart. They know if someone is trying to pull a fast one or if there is legitimate need for a Chapter 7. How do they know this? Well, it speaks to, in non-legal terms, proving and convincing them of whatever mitigating factors are present in the case. I had issues (disabled baby, spouse not able to work, etc.)
And although I have an attorney, I took the time to sit down and write a concise and pointed letter to the UST Trial Attorney explaining that while my income was way over means test, there were specific reasons why the Chapter 7 should apply (and I then listed them along with attached documentation). My attorney also followed up with a couple calls to the UST to address what/if there are issues still open. (By the way, if you are in NY/NJ I *highly* recommend my attorney who is extremely knowledgeable, knows the BK Trustees and was instrumental in speaking with the UST several times. This atty is worth his weight in gold even if you do not have a major issue. Please private message me if you want his name.)
I learned that I would *not* recommend trying to battle the UST on the face of the abuse. Meaning "hey, you are wrong, there is no abuse". While in the end, it does come down to abuse or not (if 707(b) is filed against someone), it's just a roundabout way of addressing the UST's issues. Make sense?
I also saw that it was critical (and this is true for people filing/will soon file) to become knowledgable about BK stuff. Ideally, you do this *before* you have to file. Of course, by the time you realize you need to file and make it to these boards, it's probably too late to start cleaning up bank acct, etc. Not to worry. I was clueless about all this stuff, too, at that juncture.
Also - do not freak out or panic at any time. Seldom is anything in bankruptcy very very urgent. While there is indeed a timeline, it usually spans weeks (and possible months), not hours. Remain calm. Be honest. Consult your atty or paralegal, read these boards. Buy the NOLO book on Ch 7 (even if you have an atty).
Most importantly, figure out how to manage your life, income/expenses on lower spending/no evil credit cards.
SOOOOOO..... In the end, the UST withdrew the 707(b) presumption of abuse before it ever came down to going to court, the BK Trustee filed the paperwork to be released from his duty, etc. I did have to wait an additional 60 days on top of the usual 60 days since that paperwork was filed earlier on... so I am now a few days past the last date for objections (there have not been any posted to PACER). My PACER listing is very quiet (last filing was the BK "Report of No Distribution.")
I assume it's just a bit of paperwork and the clerk who needs to enter it on the docket... so I am eager to see the discharge status (there are no flags or anything)... I am in NY, which is surely overrun with BK filings, so perhaps it will take a couple days. If I do not see the discharge on PACER soon, my atty will call in another week about the discharge.
In case this post was not coherent, if anyone has any questions about dealing with UST or whatever, I would willingly help on here. Please post or message me. Naturally, many people on here are quite knowledgable, but I did live through it and would share more of my experience if you need to know for your own case.
I appreciate the inputs and support received over the past few months from HHM, TEW, biotechsolution, BROKENN, AngelinaCat/Hub, Jessiegirl, countless others I am forgetting.
I am cautiously awaiting the end of this.
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