Assets turned over in bankruptcy

[NoMoreRed]

No, First Franklin.... which is like the armpit of mortgage companies...

It is painful seeing someone else buy your house for $300k less then what you did....

They must be the left armpit because Countrywide is the right one. LOL

The mortgage companies must have something going with the media, because everyone I've talked to has gotten nowhere with any kind of negotiation with the mortgage companies. The main reason we filed BK is because our house is upside down just like everyone else and the mortgage company drug us along. We didn't want to be left holding the bag since we had no other options such as selling or refinance.

[robinsj]

So, every since we moved out of our house, our piano has been sitting at the piano store we purchase it from. Mainly because I am friends with the guy, and he said we could just store it there until we found a place to live that it would fit. But he called me yesterday and told me he had an offer on it and was wondering if we wanted to sell it. We could sure use the money now, but was curious what any of you might think?

[justbroke]

So, every since we moved out of our house, our piano has been sitting at the piano store we purchase it from. Mainly because I am friends with the guy, and he said we could just store it there until we found a place to live that it would fit. But he called me yesterday and told me he had an offer on it and was wondering if we wanted to sell it. We could sure use the money now, but was curious what any of you might think?

This is an excellent question for a lawyer because it touches on property rights.

I don't think you can sell it, unless you had motioned to court to sell it free and clear of liens. But that's just my read. Otherwise, the Trustee would have taken it and sold it... free and clear of liens. (And, I think you can only do this when the liens are avoidable.)

You don't owe the lienholder anything because the debt was discharged in the bankruptcy. More confusing, is that you also own the property (in possession) but it is subject to the "purchase money security interest" of the lienholder (Yamaha?).

This is a good case to follow for sure. I'm wondering what your lawyer will say. I think this stretches into non-bankruptcy law and I'm no lawyer, so can't suggest the one thing that I want to suggest.

[robinsj]

Well one thing I am confused about is, when did it become our responsibility to move the piano around and make sure it was safe. I mean, we didn't pay to move it, and we aren't paying to store it, but that is only because I am good friends with the guy I bought it from. For all they know we paid to move it and are paying to store it. When did that become our responsiblity, we said we would give it up? I mean, what if they showed up 6 months from now to pick it up and we said, we don't have it anymore, we left it in the house we lived in assuming it wasn't ours?

Oh yes, and what is it you would like to say to do, don't worry I won't take it as lawyerly advice, it will be just another opinion.

[justbroke]

When did that become our responsiblity, we said we would give it up? I mean, what if they showed up 6 months from now to pick it up and we said, we don't have it anymore, we left it in the house we lived in assuming it wasn't ours?

I was reading a case where a person surrendered a car. The lender was supposed to pick it up. The lender never did. the personn dropped the insurance, but was still driving it (I know slightly different than your case). Months later, and as fate would have it, the debtor crashed the car. Then the debtor "gave it away" to the shop that towed it.

The lender complained to the court and tried to say that the value discharged is only the value when the car was crashed / salvaged. (I believe this was a Chapter 7) The Court disagreed saying that the value was the value upon the filing of the case, so the value of the vehicle at the time of filing is the value discharged, not the amount when it was crashed. Needless to say, the lender lost big time because they hadn't come to get the car.

I think similarly, that if you "left" it behind or otherwise destroyed it... the lender (Yamaha) would be on similar ground. However, to actually sell it... would probably mean that you would have to turn that money over to Yamaha. Here's my non-lawyer brain thinking again. Check your sales contract (security agreement). Usually, not only did you grant a "purchase money security interest" in the piano, there was (probably) another provision in that sales contract that read something like "includes any money you receive from selling the property or from insurance you have on the property". Since I'm no lawyer, I wonder if all provisions of the contract still apply, less the ones that require you to pay them. Now, that is the question.

Again, I think it goes to your "security agreement" (sales agreement) and whether that little provision is there. It also goes to whether that provision is enforceable after bankruptcy and the discharge of the debt.

As for if you moved it around and incurred cost, you could certainly attempt to recover these. My general theory is that you maintain a log and "charge" Yamaha for storage of the piano monthly. I would also charge them for the moving of the piano to the storage location (the store). That way you offset their final costs, and at some point, they owe more than it's worth (but that would probably take some time). At some point, the storage location will get tired of it, and you'll have to sell it to pay the storage costs. You could probably sell it too, and give the proceeds of the sale to Yamaha less the storage/moving costs. This is all theoretical of course. I'm thinking out loud! (And what I was thinking was sell it, but all these caveats above keep floating in my brain... that is the underlying contract -- security agreement.)

That's my general viewpoint and opinion.

[robinsj]

Yeah, I have pretty much the same viewpoints as you. I would have to pull out my contract and look at it, if I can find it somewhere. I am a pretty level headed person, and I usually think things through before doing anything rash, and my level headed ness says you sell it, and within a week they will be here knocking on my door saying we are here for the piano.