Yikes, please help decipher!

[justbroke]

Yes Help, I could use your help. At least now I feel I have a fighting chance. You have a link to where I can get those additional documents that would be great. Also, can I find a copy of my means test at Pacer? My lawyer has my original. I thought I was looking at it last night but today I could not find it.

Your means test is part of your Petition.

Just look for the Petition and Schedules in PACER. Download those documents. Save them on your computer in a conspicuous place with a good (indicative) filename.

[Kingxray]

Oh I have a good filename for those documents #&?%! Thanks.

[Help!]

Oh I have a good filename for those documents #&?%! Thanks.

I have some similar filenames on my hard drive!

[Kingxray]

Okay, I found my means test. There are a few discrepencies in it made by my lawyer's office and brought up by the creditor's (again my dad) lawyer at the 341.

1)It stated we had 2 cars. We only have one, hubby drives company car.
2)At the time we filed the petition we had rental income for our other home. Just before the 341 the renters moved out and now we have no rental income and therefore cannot pay the mortgage on that home. We also mentioned this at our 341.

Do you these two things could have someting to do with the presumption of abuse filed by the UST? Four days after our 341 the trustee filed that the meeting had concluded and sent the report to be approved. Now today this.

Also the creditor's lawyer asked us about fed. withholding and practically accused me of it being incorrect. The UST had 6 months of stubs and I got my figure off the stubs so I am assuming it is correct, unless there was a typo by my lawyer's staff when entering the info.

Any ideas? Thanks.

[justbroke]

First, the presumption of abuse is about your ability to fund a Chapter 13 and your inability to qualify for a Chapter 7. That presumption of abuse has nothing to do with fraud or other strange illegal activity.

Second, the Trustee thinks you have money for some reason. It may had been the rental. Did you use the rental income in your Means Test?

[Kingxray]

I just looked at the means test and from what I can see we included it. It lists the property as a rental property. I would think the UST would want us to go 7 because of all the equity we have in the rental that we are surrendering. They will get much less if we go 13 in 5.

[justbroke]

I just looked at the means test and from what I can see we included it. It lists the property as a rental property. I would think the UST would want us to go 7 because of all the equity we have in the rental that we are surrendering. They will get much less if we go 13 in 5.

The law has absolutely nothing to do with how much money the Trustee ("Tee") can make.

The law is clear. If you have the means to fund a Chapter 13, then you don't qualify for a Chapter 7.

It isn't for the Tee to pick and choose based on how much money the Tee can make.

I wasn't worried about you listing it as rental property. I was more concerned with the cash flow from the rental.

For example, if I were the Tee, and you had negative cash flow from the rental, and if that negative cash flow was terminated, and the funds freed up allowed you to fund a Chapter 13... you'd be in the exact position you're in now. That is, explaining why you shouldn't be in a Chapter 13.

[Kingxray]

Hmm, I am not sure I understand. We had renters paying the mortgage on our first home because we could not sell it, so it was listed as rental property.
The renters moved out before our 341, so we were not able to pay the mortgage on that property.

I don't see how she can possibly think we can fund a 13. I know just from paying the bills each month that we could not possibly pay both mortgages, the judgment from my dad, and our other creditors. I also don't see where she thinks we have money. Will the UST why she is taking these actions at some point during this ordeal?

[TEW]

Hmm, I am not sure I understand. We had renters paying the mortgage on our first home because we could not sell it, so it was listed as rental property.
The renters moved out before our 341, so we were not able to pay the mortgage on that property.

I don't see how she can possibly think we can fund a 13. I know just from paying the bills each month that we could not possibly pay both mortgages, the judgment from my dad, and our other creditors. I also don't see where she thinks we have money. Will the UST why she is taking these actions at some point during this ordeal?

I hate to ask this but does your dad know the renters moved out? Is he a lawyer?

[Kingxray]

No he did not know. He is not a lawyer but his lawyer showed up at our 341 and asked questions about our means test including the rental property. We told him that the renters moved out at the end of October. I think we told that to the UST during our meeting as well.

[justbroke]

Hmm, I am not sure I understand. We had renters paying the mortgage on our first home because we could not sell it, so it was listed as rental property.
The renters moved out before our 341, so we were not able to pay the mortgage on that property.

I don't see how she can possibly think we can fund a 13. I know just from paying the bills each month that we could not possibly pay both mortgages, the judgment from my dad, and our other creditors. I also don't see where she thinks we have money. Will the UST why she is taking these actions at some point during this ordeal?

I was talking... if you didn't have the rental unit.

Remember, while a Chapter 13 may allow you to keep property... it's no guarantee that you can!!! It's just a possibility.

So, the Trustee is probably thinking, my guess, is that if you got rid of the Rental Property, you could fund a Chapter 13. You cannot have a negative cash flow on a business -- which a rental is considered a business operation as far as the Bankruptcy code is concerned.

That makes you ineligible to file a Chapter 7, by definition.

[Help!]

It is the UST's job to look through the above median cases and convert as many as possible to Ch. 13. Here's the beginning of the list, from memory:

(1) All pay stubs for the past six months
(2) Previous six months statements for all financial accounts (including PayPal, 401K, IRA, stock options, pensions) held within the past year, including closed accounts.
(3) Copies of all lease agreements, mortgage notes, loan documents
(4) Copies of car titles, loan or lease agreements, purchase agreements
(5) Statements for all utilities in previous six months
(6) If medical expenses claimed on means test, copy of health insurance benefit summary from employer, receipts for premiums and copays
(7) If homeowner's insurance/renter's insurance claimed as an expense on means test, copy of policy and receipts for premiums.
(8) If life insurance claimed as an expense, copies of policy and receipts for premiums paid

The list goes on and on, essentially it's documentation of every number placed in a blank on the means test.

[Kingxray]

That sucks but that certainly seems to be our case. We haven't been able to sell that house for 2 years and haven't paid the mortgage in months. Can the "tee" force us into 13?

[justbroke]

That sucks but that certainly seems to be our case. We haven't been able to sell that house for 2 years and haven't paid the mortgage in months. Can the "tee" force us into 13?

Absolutely. Or, you can just let the case dismiss.

[jessegirl]

Opening up a new thread sry