pre-filing counseling and privacy

[IOIOIO]

Are approved counseling places entitled to or required to collect the following items of personal information?

1) home phone
2) social security number
3) date of birth
4) acknowledgment of whether or not I have an attorney

For example, this place wants that info to sign up, but I don't want to give them one thing more than I have to, just on general principles. Maybe I'm wrong but I get a certain sense of a hard sell coming from these places, which implies to me that not only do they make money from their course fees (which is fine), but there's some follow-on marketing in store for anyone who signs up with them (which is not fine).

[Mi Bankruptcy]

I don't know which state you are from.

However,

Make sure your choice of who to take your classes through is approved by the gov't

http://www.usdoj.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa/ccde/cc_approved.htm

[IOIOIO]

I don't know which state you are from.

However,

Make sure your choice of who to take your classes through is approved by the gov't

http://www.usdoj.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa/ccde/cc_approved.htm

My state is in my signature, and I specified that my question regards approved counseling places.

[FreshLikeADaisy]

IOIOIO, my strong suggestion to you is that you select another. I ran into a hard sell very similar to the one you describe, but in person, and it involved them getting me into a back room trying to force me into signing a bunch of stuff and giving up my SSN, which -- like you -- I was loath to do to begin with, and thank God I was. In the end, it was so ugly I filed a complaint with the DOJ about it.

But the next place I tried, an online place in Tampa, were just as wonderful as the first place was bad. AND they never wanted my SSN.

Seriously, find another. Some of these places are highly unethical, they make their money from "debt management" programs and funding from major creditors. I'm pretty sure that's why they wanted my SSN so badly; they wanted to strong-arm me into a lucrative DMP. There are even links to the FTC warnings about them on the DOJ page where you click to get to the place you choose your state and are then taken to the list (http://www.usdoj.gov/ust/eo/bapcpa/ccde/index.htm). You were wise not to select that one.

I note that Hummingbird is one of the approved providers for California; I never used them but many people here have posted satisfactory experiences with them, for what it's worth.

Good luck!!!

P.S. I too was pro se with no problems -- I wish you well!

[IOIOIO]

Thanks for the information about an actual experience. It's good to know the social security number isn't required, and I can only presume the same about birth date and lawyer. I'm still on the fence with this place: they look ok, but I can't tell yet if their system will allow me to register without supplying the info I don't want them to have unnecessarily. I'm going the next step with them because I've already given them my name and address on the telephone in order to obtain their counseling fee waiver application, based on my income. I'm now waiting on that form. If not for that, I'd have only dealt with them online and not encountered the person on the telephone who kept suggesting I register with him on the phone. I was only reluctant to register on the phone because of my concern for having to decide on the spot whether or not to give them requested info, but when his first question to me was for my birth date, I immediately insisted that registering online would be better for me, and he was ok with that.

Since they already have my home address (and perhaps phone number since I called their toll free number) I'm already subject to their junk mailing, if that's their game, so I'll see about their online counseling service if they waive my fee.

[magyar123]

I'd be frank with them:
My name is: whatever it is
My address : whatever it is
Send me the completion certificate to my address..
The other information that you want is none of your business.

[IOIOIO]

I'd be frank with them:
My name is: whatever it is
My address : whatever it is
Send me the completion certificate to my address..
The other information that you want is none of your business.

Good advice, which I'll follow. Actually, can people recommend a specific place they've had success with getting the pre-filing counseling online? I only called the place I did because they're listed as approved for California and had a local office near where I live, which I guess I don't really need.

By the way, I called them back and they told me that in order to do the actual counseling, they would eventually need:

1) proof of income
2) list of living expenses
3) list of assets and liabilities

That's legit, right? But the guy I talked to this time was "unsure" about whether they'd also need:

1) social security number
2) date of birth
3) whether or not I have an attorney

and I don't want to give them those items if I don't have to.

[HHM]

I haven't been through the course, but asking for the SSN does not seem unreasonable to protect the integrity of the BK system. But maybe others who have done the course can chime in and state whether they had to give the SSN.

But yes, you do need to give the financial info. After all, the purpose of the course is to see if you can pay your debts without filing BK.

[IOIOIO]

I haven't been through the course, but asking for the SSN does not seem unreasonable to protect the integrity of the BK system. But maybe others who have done the course can chime in and state whether they had to give the SSN.

But yes, you do need to give the financial info. After all, the purpose of the course is to see if you can pay your debts without filing BK.

Righto on the financial stuff--that only makes sense. The personal stuff is a bit worrisome, and even though the social security number might be a convenience for the counseling service, the Nolo book insists that the social security number is to be redacted from all bankruptcy forms, except for Form 21, which is kept separate from the regular bankruptcy case file, and is only for the trustee and creditors. If the counseling service has no business requiring the social security number, it makes me distrust each bit of information they claim they require.

[HHM]

The SSN is only redacted for purposes of public access, for the BK court, the SSN is required for identification of the Debtor. Thus, having the SSN on the certificate does not seem unreasonable.

[FreshLikeADaisy]

Righto on the financial stuff--that only makes sense. The personal stuff is a bit worrisome, and even though the social security number might be a convenience for the counseling service, the Nolo book insists that the social security number is to be redacted from all bankruptcy forms, except for Form 21, which is kept separate from the regular bankruptcy case file, and is only for the trustee and creditors. If the counseling service has no business requiring the social security number, it makes me distrust each bit of information they claim they require.

That was exactly my thought going in, and when they literally tried to bully me into giving it up, I knew I had done absolutely right in withholding it. Those FTC warnings about credit counseling firms aren't on the DOJ website for nothing! I should add that one of the forms they wanted me to sign was a very broad waiver regarding my personal financial info: when I challenged it by asking precisely to whom my credit info would be revealed, they became very pissed. Apparently I wasn't supposed to notice that one line buried in a lot of other language about how very careful they'd be with my privacy. Ooops.

The great firm I used in Tampa (not approved for CA, sorry, I looked ) wanted my financial info, and proof I was receiving assistance for a disability to waive my fee, both of which I thought reasonable, but never information that would specifically allow them to access my credit history or info. Yes, they wanted every bit of income and expenses and asset information, but not account numbers or a copy of my credit bureau or my SSN. And from what I have experienced, and others have as well, these credit counseling providers don't ALL require your SSN... which means that having your SSN is not essential to receiving a certificate, only that provider's particular program for issuing it.

Like I said, caveat emptor.

[FreshLikeADaisy]

The SSN is only redacted for purposes of public access, for the BK court, the SSN is required for identification of the Debtor. Thus, having the SSN on the certificate does not seem unreasonable.

To me it is: the certificates of both pre- and post-filing courses are posted in their entirety to PACER along with Form 1 Exhibit D and Form 23 (the accompanying forms). If my SSN were on them, they'd be there for all the world to see.

But as I posted earlier, that's NOT why the credit counseling firm wanted my SSN. It had nothing to do with the certificate, and everything to do with trying to force me into a debt management program. I should add that they are listed as a non-profit. They may be non-profit for the benefit of 501(c)(3), but they are damn sure not non-profit in the real sense of the term.

Others may have different experiences, but those FTC warnings aren't there for nothing. There are very few requirements for a debt management company to become a DOJ pre- or post-filing bk credit counseling provider, and from what I understand it's mainly a matter of being incorporated and applying to the DOJ. Not a lot of vetting goes on for these firms.

If I had to do it over again, I would STILL withhold my SSN until and unless I heard a good reason for handing it over -- just as I would in any other financial situation. There is never any lack of people willing to prey on the disadvantaged, and firms who have signed up to be bk counseling providers are NO exception.

Feel free to disagree, but those are my thoughts...

[IOIOIO]

To me it is: the certificates of both pre- and post-filing courses are posted in their entirety to PACER along with Form 1 Exhibit D and Form 23 (the accompanying forms). If my SSN were on them, they'd be there for all the world to see.

But as I posted earlier, that's NOT why the credit counseling firm wanted my SSN. It had nothing to do with the certificate, and everything to do with trying to force me into a debt management program.

No way they're getting my social security number unless it's legally required, which I'll inform them it's not. Maybe I'll enter all 0's into their online system. There's a public "dummy" SSN from the Eisenhower era that belongs to no one that's ok to use as a placeholder when dealing with jerks, but I forget what it is or how to find it.

In my case, any recommendation to enter a debt management program instead of filing would be laughable, but they can go ahead and recommend all they want. It's illegal for them to specifically recommend against filing, since that would be legal advice they're not approved to practice.

I did tell them not to share any information about me with any third party and they assured me they're confidential. I'll just write my request for confidentiality on every document I submit to them. My concern, though, is that counseling via internet will force me to agree to things or else end the session, with no intervening human. But the problem with face-to-face counseling is it's harder to take a break and check up on anything they tell me.

I searched the Department of Justice's web site, but "credit counseling" returns a lot of hits. Do you have a link to where they specifically warn about scumbag companies?

[Mi Bankruptcy]

I did it through Greenpath yesterday. It took for ever to key everything online. It cost 50.00. The nice thing is they had my attorney in their system and emailed him our certificate ( after approval from us). The attorney legal aid confirmed they received the certificate. The only bad thing is they wanted to try to do a DMP.. As soon as he started discussing it, I said I am only hear to get a certificate. What you guys can do in a DMP I can do by contacting the lender(s). I then told them I am only hear because it's legally required. My attorney recommend them. I did like that I was able to log onto their website and download a pdf version of my certificates along with a copy of everything I entered online. I may use Hummingbird for my Post-BK class

[magyar123]

I haven't been through the course, but asking for the SSN does not seem unreasonable to protect the integrity of the BK system. But maybe others who have done the course can chime in and state whether they had to give the SSN.

But yes, you do need to give the financial info. After all, the purpose of the course is to see if you can pay your debts without filing BK.

Excuse me - but my financial info. should not be any of the counseling agency's business in determining if I can pay my debts without filing. The means test is the ultimate determination.