Happy Ira's 341: The good, the bad and the very ugly.

[BROKENN]

With respect to the Amended Sched I (and associated Sched J since it affects the bottom line monthly "net") he asked for... is that something my lawyer submits? I dont want to pay another fee.

Yes, he needs to file it. He shouldn't charge you either. Have you called him and gotten his take?

[WoodSprite]

The US Trustee on the other hand... I really don't know what his deal is; I guess he is doing his job.

Speaking of which, I wondered if the UST also gets a cut of any assets he can dig up, or is his motivation simply to audit cases and root out fraud? Does anyone know?

With respect to the Amended Sched I (and associated Sched J since it affects the bottom line monthly "net") he asked for... is that something my lawyer submits? I dont want to pay another fee.

I'm sure your lawyer would submit that, but they all negotiate their own deals, so the fee is pretty much up in the air, unless you have something in writing with him.

[happy_ira]

Speaking of which, I wondered if the UST also gets a cut of any assets he can dig up,

IMHO, I highly doubt that. He's not after any assets at this point. He just wants to ensure I didn't make up any bogus expenses (which I didn't), thus he wants proof of receipts, paystubs, and divorce settlement showing required child support (which I all have).

Not that I am contemplating it, but I'm pretty confident that people have committed suicide over lesser things. The premise of this request is quite aggravating.

[WoodSprite]

IMHO, I highly doubt that. He's not after any assets at this point. He just wants to ensure I didn't make up any bogus expenses (which I didn't), thus he wants proof of receipts, paystubs, and divorce settlement showing required child support (which I all have).

I agree. You're all good then.

Not that I am contemplating it, but I'm pretty confident that people have committed suicide over lesser things. The premise of this request is quite aggravating.

...or murder, depending on one's temperament! I've felt choleric, melancholic, sanguine, and phlegmatic all on the same DAY through this process.

Hang in there, Ira, and gather your family round close. As Hub says, you shall prevail...

[biotechsolution]

The UST is mainly there to push any filiers that are over the mean into a Chapter 13. If you are way over the mean he's going to work extra hard to push the fiier into a 13. Has long as you can justify your expenses it shouldn't be that bad.

Worse case the judge decides if you should be in a 13 or a 7.

[happy_ira]

The UST is mainly there to push any filiers that are over the mean into a Chapter 13. If you are way over the mean he's going to work extra hard to push the fiier into a 13.

Very interesting.... and makes sense. I think you are right, biotech, after all, on first glance I am *way* over the mean income. Yet I have my proof of needing to file (high mortgage, disabled child, big fixed costs, lots of credit card debt, etc.) Therefore, the more I think about it, just about everything he asked for related "prove me that you have these expenses". Whereas the BK Trustee was moreso interested in assets, the US Trustee seems to want to see the expenses in my case: Proof of childcare expense, proof of child support/alimony expense, proof of charitable contributions expense. Everyone of those items could make the difference between having money leftover for a Ch 13 payment plan versus a shortfall keeping me in Ch 7.

Has long as you can justify your expenses it shouldn't be that bad.

My question is... so I will send him all this proof stuff, then what? What if he says "well, too bad... I don;t thikn it is justifiable. I don't think you can think you should spend less on childcare to watch the baby." Or "don't give so much charity..." Or whatever. Does the US Trustee have such power?

Worse case the judge decides if you should be in a 13 or a 7.

I hope it doesn't come to this, but out of curiousity - how does this come to pass? I mean, when does it move to a Judge situation?!?

[biotechsolution]

My question is... so I will send him all this proof stuff, then what? What if he says "well, too bad... I don;t thikn it is justifiable. I don't think you can think you should spend less on childcare to watch the baby." Or "don't give so much charity..." Or whatever. Does the US Trustee have such power?



I hope it doesn't come to this, but out of curiousity - how does this come to pass? I mean, when does it move to a Judge situation?!? [/QUOTE]


If you are over the mean and expenses to justify it, you're right. The UST can still say that your expenses are too high. He can then object on 'the totality of the situation'...basically a 'generic' objection, strictly subjective not hard number objective. This objection usually pops up when debtors are way over the mean. It's going to be hard for the UST to swallow if you're close to double the state mean.

All it means is that you are going to work a little harder for the discharge. He may question all expenses including child care if your wife doesn't work. This one has been challenged in court cases.

If he still doesn't agree with your expenses then you will have a hearing in front of the judge and justify your expenses to him.

[happy_ira]

If he still doesn't agree with your expenses then you will have a hearing in front of the judge and justify your expenses to him.

Oh my. How many people on here have had things go all the way up the ladder from BK Trustee to US Trustee to Judge? Yikes-o-rama. Hopefully that won't happen, but let's play it out in theory. Let's assume he pushes back and says my wife should work or I shouldnt have childcare for the sick baby or whatever such that some expenses get reduced in his mind....

1. Is he trying to push me into Ch 13 or is he trying to throw out my entire case altogether?
   
2. If he does try to convert me to Ch 13, who comes up with the montly dollar amount I should be paying toward creditors? The US Trustee?
   
3. Is there room for negotiation (to avoid going before a judge) where I voluntarily agree to a Ch 13 and some kind of payment plan? Would he accept that?
   
4. Can the case be thrown out altogether and I'll be left on the sidewalk holding a bunch of irrelevant bankruptcy papers with tears streaking down my face while the US Trustee goes for his morning cup of Starbucks?

I am beginning to hate the US Trustee with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns...

All it means is that you are going to work a little harder for the discharge. He may question all expenses including child care if your wife doesn't work. This one has been challenged in court cases..

Challenged by who? The US Trustee or the debtor? Who usually prevails?

[BROKENN]

Challenged cases should be backed with a link please. Was it disabled children that was challenged?

I really don't get that this could go this far, though I may be wrong.....

Ira, did you talk to your lawyer? What is his idea on this? He should have a good idea as he has been around these trustees before.

[happy_ira]

Challenged cases should be backed with a link please. Was it disabled children that was challenged? I really don't get that this could go this far, though I may be wrong.....

Ira, did you talk to your lawyer? What is his idea on this? He should have a good idea as he has been around these trustees before.

Hi Brokenn. The challenge is outlined in the beginning of this thread. Basically, the BK Trustee was fine with everything and was about to close the case, but then the US Trustee chimed in and wants to see proof of several expenses (childcare, alimony, charitable cont). He seems to be pointing toward "hey, you made up too many expenses, I think you really have some $$$ leftover because you are way above state mean [and thus you belong in Ch 13, not Ch 7]".

Honestly, if my case makes it to a judge, it will be a *huge* waste of taxpayer dollars.

I am meeting again with my lawyer to discuss all this, but sadly I am *completely* out of funds and friends who can help pay for him for representing me before the US Trustee (will see if he wants to charge extra). So, I am probably going to end battling this US Trustee all by my lonesome. Ugh.

[BROKENN]

He may question all expenses including child care if your wife doesn't work. This one has been challenged in court cases.

Sorry, I meant this "challenge" referenced.

There are quite a few people here on this forum that were over the median and they came through. Hopefully they will chime in.

[BROKENN]

I am meeting again with my lawyer to discuss all this, but sadly I am *completely* out of funds and friends who can help pay for him for representing me before the US Trustee (will see if he wants to charge extra). So, I am probably going to end battling this US Trustee all by my lonesome. Ugh.

He will at least have a **feel** for this and it will give you some data to work with.

You aren't alone, we are here

[WoodSprite]

You aren't alone, we are here

That's right. Don't forget.

And remember, you've been asking for worst case scenarios, here...that doesn't mean any of this is actually going to happen. Odds are, it's just a run-of-the-mill hugely annoying audit.

[jessegirl]

Hey IRA - How much did your attorney put down for Charitable Contributions?

[happy_ira]

Hey IRA - How much did your attorney put down for Charitable Contributions?

Well, it's not a matter of how much my attorney "put down", but really how much I honestly spend monthly on poor people and institutions. Typically, I contribute the $300-$400 monthly stated on my Schedule J (and Form 22A) to charities and/or homeless individuals (unfortunately, there are many of the latter on nearly every street block in NYC). The US Trustee actually questioned this amount for me and asked "will I see this level of charit contributions on your tax returns for past couple of years?" I guess he didn't believe someone would give away that much money on a monthly basis. When I answered "Yes" in a hearbeat he said he wants to see the returns.

Needless to say, he will see that (and much more than $400/month) on my Schedule A (itemized deductions) of my past years tax returns, which I will happily provide him with; line 15 on Sched A requires you to list charitable contributions. In fact, I told the US Trustee on the spot that I like to tithe 10% of my gross wages, but I need the money these days for the bills so I had to take it way down to 2%. (I still dont think he believed I actually part with that much money each month.) This is *well* within the acceptable level per my attorney and many other cases you can look up. The bankruptcy code acknowledges and permits tithing. And at a mere 2%, it is far from controversial relative to other high cases.

Jessie - I think if you are anywhere from 2%-5% you will be okay, but prepare to back it up by something like a tax return proof over the trending past few years. You cant make it up out of the blue suddenly. Otherwise, the Trustee has a right to raise an eyebrow and say "hey, wait a sec, now you are a good samaritan on creditors expense?" Make sense?

Of all the questions I got asked by the US Trustee, all on-the-spot, I was probably most hurt by this one, but I guess lots of people lie about all kinds of things so he has to ask.