Is American General out of luck?

[ThreadsSnapping]

Just to recap, we had a loan with American General and had pledged our laptops as collateral and they have a lien against them. My attorney filed a motion to keep American General from getting their hands on the laptop and I think it was successful. Am I right?

Here is what is on Pacer.

ORDER CANCELING NON-PURCHASE MONEY SECURITY INTEREST
The motion of the above-named debtor to avoid the non-possessory non-purchase-money security interest of AMERIAN GENERAL is sustained.
It is hereby ORDERED and DECREED that the non possessory non-purchase-money security interest held by AMERIAN GENERAL in and on the debtor's property is hereby canceled.
It is further ORDERED that unless debtor's bankruptcy case is dismissed AMERIAN GENERAL shall take all steps necessary and appropriate to release the non-possessory non-purchase-money security interest.
IT IS SO ORDERED.
This order was signed and entered electronically as indicated at the top of the first page.

Is my laptop mine to keep free and clear?

TS

[pmed8]

Yep

AG is really bad about having people use their "Personal items" as collateral for loans.

They did the same thing when I borrowed some cash from them. My lawyer filed the same thing as yours and they didn't get squat.

Makes me really wonder how their underwriting department lets them allow people to put those sorta things up as collateral. I guess when you are charging 15-25% on loans the profit margin of the ones not defaulted on must outweigh the losses associated with the ones that are.

Pmed8

[ThreadsSnapping]

Thanks! That's what I thought but just wanted to make sure.

Your right they probably make enough off of the people who do pay to cover their losses on the ones who default. Of the ones who default, I'm guessing only a small % file BK. My guess would be that the liens against the collateral is used mostly to scare people into paying than anything else. If you are scared of loosing your couch/laptop/tv/whatever, you will find a way to pay to keep it.

TS

[justbroke]

Congratulations ThreadsSnapping. You have successfully avoided a non-PMSI lien!!!

I have two of those myself, one is with American General and the other with CitiFinancial. More than likely, it was avoided because it was never perfected. I've found that most of these companies never perfect the lien (record it), so, they don't really have one. Once you file bankruptcy, they can not file a lien (that would be a violation of the Automatic Stay!.

Also, you can also get out of these liens if they're on household goods, household furnishings, tools of the trade, and one computer, one VCR, one television, etc. (Also depends on your State exemptions).

Good work on your lawyer keeping up with those secured creditors.

Wish me luck with mine! American General has "allegedly" a lien on some of my computers.

[AngelinaCatHub]

We had American General and they held two car Titles. Once car burned up, and the other blew an engine. They were crafty enough to send to our Trustee, not attorney, at our 341 he gave it back, a reaffermation agreement all filled out. We took it and shredded it. I think they thought when handed by the Trustee we would sign it. Nonsence. But it was a cool trick to try. 'Hub

[AngelinaCat]

AG also a few months after the loan, imposed their own high-priced insurance on one of the cars--not both--over and above what we already were carrying on the cars ourselves. They insisted that we pay that too--which was NOT part of the original agreement. When the first car burned, and we reported it to AG so they could file a claim on THEIR insurance, all of a sudden, this insurance was on the OTHER car! What business practices. We went around like two rabid dogs on this.

Finally when the other car broke down and it was going to cost well over 1K for a temporary fix, we gave the car to the mechanic for the cost of the estimate. Reported that to AG as well.

By now we were so disgusted with their lack of willingness to work with us, and so behind in payments, that we stopped trying to pay anything. This was about a year before we filed. Theirs was one of two lawsuits in progress against us when we filed. Needless to say they got stopped in the water. Then they tried to slip this reaffirmation agreement in by sending it to the Trustee. BK couldn't have happened to a better creditor!

[wtu]

AG sounds like a nightmare. Glad I've never had any dealings with them.

[ThreadsSnapping]

They are. They are the ones who showed up at our 341 asking if we were going to pay to keep the laptops. He was very upset when I told him that one died and I didn't have it anymore and I wasn't going to pay over $900 to keep a laptop worth $200 on ebay on a good day. But he was going to be so nice and lower it to $500 for us! I told him I could just go buy a brand spanking new Dell for $600 instead of keeping a 6 year old laptop. Do I look that stupid?

I just looked over the claim they filed and they DID record the lien. It was done about 14 days after we got the loan. Don't know if the 10 day rule applies here as it does to cars. So whether or not it was perfected/done properly/in time is unclear.

Turns out my attorney filed the motion to avoid a lien on household goods on 7/31 and American General had until 8/21 to respond. Since they didn't, the order was entered on 8/22 telling them to bug off!

And as Cat said, couldn't have happened to a better creditor!

TS

[BKParalegal]

A bit of a segue, but I don't understand some peoples attacks on Beneficial and American General ( ACat, ACatHub, Thread, et al). I am all for sticking it to the credit card companies that gave you credit at one rate and then jack it up, essentially forcing you into BK. But with Beneficial and company, they offer signature loans(guaranteed by personal property) at a marginal interest rate, and you were more than happy to take their money, and the details of the loan are/were all spelled out. How is it then when it is time to file bk, they are part of the axis of evil? Especially when their loans are detailed for you to completely understand before you took THEIR money. I have no problem discharging their debt along with others, but to classify them as deceiving, underhanded etc. points more toward your ignorance of the details of the loan you chose rather than their attempt to collect on a loan YOU secured with your belongings.

[ThreadsSnapping]

It is not what they did before we filed bk that I have a problem with, we knew what we were doing and what the interst rate was - 32% just in case you were wondering. We had an emergency, needed the money and we agreed to their terms.

It is the sneaky way they go about collecting afterwards that I have problem with. There was never any contact with my attorney about whether or not we wanted to reaffirm, just showed up at the 341. My attorney was just a s suprised as we were that they showed up. How many people have been confronted at their 341 and gotten scared into reaffirming because they were afraid they would have their furniture/laptop/whatever taken away? Or how many people were presented with a reaffirmation agreement from the trustee like Cat and Hub were and they thought they had to sign it and reaffirm since the trustee gave it to them?

Yes, a good lawyer will look out for his client and protect them but we all know that there are plenty of bad attorneys that won't and these are the people that get hurt by American General's underhanded actions after they file bk.

So yes, they have every right to try and I was completly ready to turn over a laptop if need be but if there is a way to avoid it legally within the bk code then I will. If the motion was denied and they did decide to come get the laptop you could be damn sure that they wouldn't get it without a Writ of Replevin and a Sheriff by their side. Otherwise, what is to keep them from saying we didn't get it and you still owe us a laptop and/or money? They may want to try and be sneaky about how they do things but I want it done legally with a paper trail and proof.

TS

[justbroke]

BKParalegal, I don't think that the parasitic Finance Companies are all that bad... to warrant being called the Axis of Evil. What I do think is that their scheme is not well known by people. (I knew what I was doing personally.) As such, some may think that their lending is actually predatory and/or parasitic.

Most folks don't understand the pledge of the personal property. So, when things get nasty, Finance Companies can come for the collateral. For some reason, folks don't seem to connect the words "pledged" or "collateral" with "secured"... like their car or home.

I think this is what frustrates people, because now they have attached security to something they may actually want to keep!

I'm sure the Axis of Evil point only comes about because these Finance Companies seem to be the most aggressive at collection that I've ever seen. I've never heard of one showing up at a Creditor's Meeting (341) to claim a laptop... that's pretty harsh.

But then again, as I pointed to earlier, they have local offices for the same reason. So that they can more easily collect on the debt secured by property. Much harder for that big bank in Wilmington Delaware to come to your house on that "PMSI" based Lowe's or Home Depot card you used to purchase that Refrigerator, Gas Grille, and patio furniture! And Best Buy coming to get their Big Screen Plasma back, is less likely.

Hence, makes the Finance Companies look bad because they have the local resources to collect on their debt.

I will say that you're very accurate BKPara... they are collecting on a debt one promised to pay, and pledged collateral against it. Nothing personal, just business. However, to most, it seems harsh when they are probably the most strict when it comes to collecting on pledged property.

To those that have these types of loans, I expect more aggresive collection on these as the economy sours.