Originally posted by justplaintired
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:"There is nothing wrong with planning, or strategizing before and during your bk. In fact, it is very much in your best interest to do so: there is absolutely nothing morally or legally wrong with planning your bk so that you can keep the maximum allowed you by bk law.
BUT...
There is EVERYTHING wrong with having to lie, and omit explicitly requested facts, in order to qualify for and receive a bk discharge, regardless of the chapter.
You don't have to be a lawyer to know when you're lying."
Doesn't sound like you had to lie or deceive or omit expressly requested facts in your filing, Tired. Neither I (or anyone else, I think) have any problem with people planning their bk beforehand... as I have explicitly said multiple times now. I have also helped many people to do precisely this, in posts other than this one. In fact, if you read carefully, you saw that I began my interaction with Liz by helping her do the same. If she had not openly and repeatedly expressed her intention to deceive, there would have been nothing for me to complain about.
All of this begs a question for all honest filers: if you took the trouble to face bk squarely and list all your assets honestly, with care and diligence to be as factual as possible, bending over backward to make sure you didn't inadvertently leave anything out... how is it that you can condone deceit in your fellow filers' actions? Do you not realize how much harder that has made -- and is now making -- the bk process for you?
You know that credit counseling and debt ed requirement? You know the random audits (one in 25, if I remember correctly) filers get hit with regardless of their circumstances? You know that b*tch of a means test you had to fill out and sweat over, the one that says on the face of it that it exists to determine the presumption of abuse? That laundry list of documentation you may or may not have received from your trustee? One guess as to who you have to thank for that -- and it ain't the many honest, truly destitute filers.
Are you not aware that there are trustees and districts in this country who routinely dismiss cases for failure to provide even arcane documentation, even when it is clearly a burden for the filer to provide it? I think especially of the older people who are forced into bk after a life of hard work, and then, at the point in their lives where they can least make sense of it, are forced to jump through technical hoop after technical hoop to get through it... because of all of those who forced bk "reform" by using the system dishonestly, for personal gain. Are you really certain that deceit in filing, just to keep a few extra dollars (at the risk of fines and/or imprisonment, btw) is such a grand idea?
The more people who lie, the harder it is for the many truly needy people to access the protection of the bankruptcy court and navigate it successfully.
There are many, many people here with horror stories that led to their bks who did NOT find it necessary to lie, who have navigated the bk process and much worse with honor, integrity and courage at every turn. They have sweated and worried and had nightmares over the accuracy of their filings. There are people who have posted here who wanted to know if it was okay if they bought a $40 birthday present for their small child, because they honestly did not know if the trustee would consider it a luxury. These honest people have my fullest respect, and they are why I have stuck around.
NOT the few who insist, with every low, self-serving, convoluted self-justification that they personally should not have to abide by the law because they've suffered enough. The law is good enough for you, but not for them. Sorry, but MANY have suffered... I am not moved by this kind of self-pity. In fact, I am tempted to say they are the very ones who have not suffered enough, if that is possible, because they have clearly not gained character nor endurance through whatever they have already been through.
I wish no ill to anyone; I wish no ill to Liz, the OP; but... bids for assistance in deception, and then angry insistance on "understanding" and "compassion" when someone points out the obvious, leave me ice cold. That's unlikely to change. If it makes me unwelcome here, I am absolutely certain that one of the mods will point it out to me.
But not before *carefully* and *thoughtfully* reading the exact exchange that brought me to posting these words. That much, at least, I do ask of anyone who would correct me for not making nice with the OP.See, making nice isn't doing the OP any favors. Helping her get dismissed, or worse, is no help at all, though it may save you from the force of her indignation. I can assure you that her indignity would be far hotter from the back of a cell in federal prison. Frankly, integrity that lasts only as long as its comfort zone is not integrity. Honor that does not outlast hardship is not honor. If I have no integrity, no honor, no character, then even bk isn't going to save me.
So don't throw stones, Tired. But open your eyes. Your atty cost as much as he did, your bk was as demanding and convoluted as it was, because of what? Bk "reform" necessitated by glaring abuse of the bk system. You may wish to think twice about turning a blind eye toward what is costing you, and others -- who can least afford it -- so very much.
Thanks for listening.
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