Land - What to do with it?

[gymbo]

OK, so we bought this land years ago for $10k. We pd for it in full. Later we somehow got someone at a local bank to write us a loan with the land as collateral for $28k (to pay off cc's... this was in 2002 I think). The balance due now is about $11k.

We always knew the land was not worth 28k... but always intended on paying the loan in full.

We have been trying to sell the land for 5 years. As our balance has gone down, we have dropped the price. No takers.

I recently called an auction house and asked if they could sell it - all we need is $11k. They said - not worth it.

Anyway - we are planning to file in Feb or March of 08 and I was wondering - what should we do with this land?

I would really like to sell it - even if we just get enough to pay off the loan since it is a local bank... small town... etc.

But will that cause problems? Not sure yet if we will end up in a 7 or 13.

The land is currently not listed for sale, but I would like to relist it...

PS I was off the forum for a while and got back on and read the threads about Kids and 341 ... and now the one ... well, you know... and all I have to say is that I have gotten nothing but honesty from people on this site and anyone who posts here needs to understand no one is going to sugar coat anything if its not in your best interest. Just saying... if someone questions your intentions... it's because they want you to be prepared

[BKParalegal]

You can try to sell it all day long, it doesn't sound like you will make any money off it and if you do, then spend it on normal living expenses. I doubt you would want to keep it, but I guarantee the Trustee doesn't want it, the only issue that may come up if it is classified as an unneccesary expense( this is only if you are wanting to keep it after the BK) but that would really only be an issue if it is that payment that puts you upside down. A "trick" I do sometimes is put in the BK that I am surrendering the property, then the Trustee really doesn't care about it. I just have the client keep paying on the loan and then after the 341, I contact the lender and tell them the client wants to keep it. I have saved too many vacation condos that way I can't even remember.

Good Luck

[AngelinaCatHub]

Welcome back Gymbo. I've wondered what happened to you. About a couple of things, those of us that take time to think about other peoples problems, when we have so many of our own, do this for a couple reasons. The first is to aid another human being in their pain, the second is for our own catharsis. We can only work with info supplied, as most of us I dare say, do not read minds. In each case, the information was changed and appeared to be molded around each person's opinion to fit what the person asking wanted to hear, not what would be best for them with a consensus of opinions being the same. If you ask a question but are not seriously wishing a person's opinion unless it is what you wish to hear, why ask at all? And that's all I'm going to say as well. 'Hub

[arkienurse]

A "trick" I do sometimes is put in the BK that I am surrendering the property, then the Trustee really doesn't care about it. I just have the client keep paying on the loan and then after the 341, I contact the lender and tell them the client wants to keep it. I have saved too many vacation condos that way I can't even remember.

Good Luck

Gee, that kinda strikes me as dishonest. What if the bk hasn't been closed yet and the trustee finds out they are still paying on it. Wouldn't the debtor be in big trouble????

[momof5]

I guarantee the Trustee doesn't want it,

How can anyone guarantee that a Trustee would not want a piece of land? Certainly it has some value even if not $11,000.

Hi Gymbo! Glad to see you back

[Priceless ProSe]

You can try to sell it all day long, it doesn't sound like you will make any money off it and if you do, then spend it on normal living expenses. I doubt you would want to keep it, but I guarantee the Trustee doesn't want it, the only issue that may come up if it is classified as an unneccesary expense( this is only if you are wanting to keep it after the BK) but that would really only be an issue if it is that payment that puts you upside down. A "trick" I do sometimes is put in the BK that I am surrendering the property, then the Trustee really doesn't care about it. I just have the client keep paying on the loan and then after the 341, I contact the lender and tell them the client wants to keep it. I have saved too many vacation condos that way I can't even remember.

Good Luck

I think it would matter if the property could be sold for a profit, if you could sell it in a day on ebay for 13k then im sure you would either have to exempt or lose it. Also, ride throughs are not allowed in some states so depending on the state someone could actually lose thier property in this manner.

Unrelated question, what are the differences (legal) in cousel/preparation/filing between a lawyer/paralegal/doc preparer. I understand the differences between a lawyer and a doc preparer, but I am completely unaware as to where a paralegal falls within this spectrum.

[gymbo]

Gee, that kinda strikes me as dishonest. What if the bk hasn't been closed yet and the trustee finds out they are still paying on it. Wouldn't the debtor be in big trouble????

I don't think it would be dishonest if we are up front about it - and the trustee decides they don't want it...
And there is certainly nothing dishonest about paying debts up until discharge... also, if we kept it (and I really don't want it eithor - which is why we have been trying to sell it for our balance due) we would still have to pay for it... so not sure what would be dishonest about that?

I am just worried that IF we would manage to sell it before filing it would appear as if we sold it for less than its worth since we did, under some miracle, get a $28k loan with this 2 acre residential lot as collaterol.

BTW if anyone wants a 2 acre lot in N. Wisconsin, I have one to sell. Although I may be on the wrong forum for that. Haha.

[arkienurse]

I don't think it would be dishonest if we are up front about it - and the trustee decides they don't want it...
And there is certainly nothing dishonest about paying debts up until discharge... also, if we kept it (and I really don't want it eithor - which is why we have been trying to sell it for our balance due) we would still have to pay for it... so not sure what would be dishonest about that?

I am just worried that IF we would manage to sell it before filing it would appear as if we sold it for less than its worth since we did, under some miracle, get a $28k loan with this 2 acre residential lot as collaterol.

BTW if anyone wants a 2 acre lot in N. Wisconsin, I have one to sell. Although I may be on the wrong forum for that. Haha.

Oh my, not you gymbo. My post was aimed at bkparalegal telling you to tell the trustee you were surrendering the property, but then keep paying and tell the bank you wanted to keep it, after the trustee thinks you are giving it back to the bank, therefore the trustee doesn't try to go after the land.
Did that clear it up?? sorry if you thought I was talking to you. I understand your dillema.

And to get back to your original question about what to do to the land-- if you haven't started any consultations yet, go on and do so. Ask this question and see what they say. Looks to me that if you only get enough to cover the loan amount you..... well preferential payment just popped into my head this second, so I really don't know.

I do totally understand wanting to not shaft a small town bank. We felt the same way with our truck that went into bk. We have always been able to just walk into the bank with info on the car- how much they wanted, what it was worth- and the head guy would say ok. Heck, I even signed papers for my hubby one time because he couldn't get off work to go. We did business with this bank even when we lived 200 miles away. So we very much wanted them to get their money, and they did. Truck was worth what was owed on it so claim was paid in full, and the trustee even was kind enough to up the interest rate for them.

[Flamingo]

You can try to sell it all day long, it doesn't sound like you will make any money off it and if you do, then spend it on normal living expenses. I doubt you would want to keep it, but I guarantee the Trustee doesn't want it, the only issue that may come up if it is classified as an unneccesary expense( this is only if you are wanting to keep it after the BK) but that would really only be an issue if it is that payment that puts you upside down. A "trick" I do sometimes is put in the BK that I am surrendering the property, then the Trustee really doesn't care about it. I just have the client keep paying on the loan and then after the 341, I contact the lender and tell them the client wants to keep it. I have saved too many vacation condos that way I can't even remember.

Good Luck

Things like this is what gets people in trouble when they least expect it. It's a trick that probably does not always work as with any magic act or trick. I am sure there are many vacation condos that were not saved so there is fraud and risk involved. As always as to online forums, anyone reading this should do their homework with a competent lawyer offline before taking any suggestions.

[Flamingo]

Unrelated question, what are the differences (legal) in cousel/preparation/filing between a lawyer/paralegal/doc preparer. I understand the differences between a lawyer and a doc preparer, but I am completely unaware as to where a paralegal falls within this spectrum.

As a paralegal not working in the BK field, I can tell you that paralegals can prepare documents for you to sign and file with the court but they cannot represent you (i.e. Paralegal BK filing services). So if the information is wrong or an issue arises, you have no representation. Paralegals cannot give legal advice but assist attorneys in matters and cases where they prepare all sorts of documents and do research but the final say and approval is with the attorney. I have several paralegal friends in the BK field. I myself am not on here as a paralegal to drum up business for my law firm or document preparation service but because we went through filing Chapter 13. I sure wish I had my paralegal buddies in 2002 when we filed! The forum advice available at that time was terrible!

The main thing is that no one should go by any advice given on any forum for any subject. One needs to do their homework as to their own situation face to face with a qualified attorney. There is too much misinformation out there that may not apply to one's specific circumstances.

[BKParalegal]

I tend not to respond to anything but the legal questions, and I have been posting quite a bit on here, so I feel compelled to explain where I am coming from just a bit. I have been in the BK industry since 1994 (not including my summers in college clerking for a law firm) I have worked for some of the largest banks in the country in their default servicing departments(BK, Foreclosure, REO) for a number of years but decided to leave the dark side and go back into the light. I currently work for a BK law firm that files a large volume of cases, as well as one of the attorneys is also a Chapter 7 BK Trustee, so I get to see both sides. In addition, I consult for BK law firms (on the side, cuz who needs sleep) by either auditing their soon to be filed or already filed BK's and how to clean them up. I host an annual BK CLE every year to teach aggressive actions on cram downs, strips off, as well as share up to date case law in the field of BK. This year I have 2 BK judges speaking and a rep from the UST. Here is where I stand philosophically; The latest changes to the BK law incredibly favored the creditor. I am in this industry because this one of the last laws to help the "little guy/girl" and it helps to be able to sleep at night, knowing I am helping someone get out of debt and not like the spawns of Hell that can represent credit card companies that charge 29.99% interest on a $10k limit credit card that was given to someone that makes $9 an hour. I will do anything within the legal limits and will absolutely push the limits of the law to have my clients keep everything and pay back nothing or at the minimum pay back as little as possible. I don't cheat, I don't lie, but I will use every trick I have to fight for my clients, that is what they pay me for. I lose sometimes, and it ticks me off, but I am ahead of the game...way ahead. I have been doing this for so long, it is a game to me, where I get to try to outsmart the Trustee's and the Judges. When I battle, the client knows that we may lose, but I am willing to try so there is no downside. The end result is, if I lose, I have to amend and give up whatever asset I was trying to exempt(that was not ordinarily exemptable). I have won and lost too many Harley Davidsons to count. And these clients don't try to keep the crap just because. It may be that once a year, the client and his friends take a 2 week road trip with their motorcycles and this trip keeps him sane the other 50 weeks. Hell yes I am going to fight the trustee to get him to keep it. This is why I get paid. If you want to lay down in front of the trustee go somewhere else, life is too short. Trustees and judges hate our law firm but we do get respect from them, and I am glad. We haven't advertised in 4 years, because all of the referrals.
In short, my answers are based on my attitude of screw the credit card companies, they have screwed you long enough. Keep everything pay back nothing!

[Flamingo]

We haven't advertised in 4 years, because all of the referrals.

I have admired your determination and efforts on here but I sort of suspected from the start, and you just confirmed, that you taking the time to post on here was to benefit your business in some way. Most posters are more blunt about it and just include the link to their firm or service. In this economy, many people come to forums such as this hoping to lure folks into utilize their services because, heck, it is free advertising and free fishing. I can't knock you for that but along with your postings, you have been including some misinformation that could make people think you were an attorney and could help them and have also posted some misinformation that could confuse some posters.

You should put (and I think one of the moderators requested it several weeks ago from you) a disclaimer in your signature that you are not an attorney and what you are about. I admire your wanting to help considerably but let's not jest that it isn't to benefit you in some way. That is quite obvious. But I must say you are one heck of a business person and are an asset to whoever you work for.

[BKParalegal]

Flamingo, what the heck are you talking about??? First off my name is BKParalegal, how much more obvious is that, in what my role is. And what kind of paranoid statement is:

"but I sort of suspected from the start, and you just confirmed, that you taking the time to post on here was to benefit your business in some way"

I am not on here, hawking our law firm, and how dare you accuse me of posting on here for any other reason but to answer people's questions. Obviously, I am stealing your thunder since someone gave you the label of "Guru" when in fact your experience in BK is as a debtor and not someone in the industry.

It is narrow-minded people like you that stifle open discussions when they feel threaten that they may lose their power or stature. Do you feel more important trying to invalidate me and labeling me as someone trying to take advantage of people? Never in any of my posts nor all the PM's that I get(which are many) have I ever "referred" my firm. I assumed and still do that most people on here are Pro Se, and I was offering some insight.

In short, Paranoid-Flamingo, fly away!

[arkienurse]

Obviously, I am stealing your thunder since someone gave you the label of "Guru" when in fact your experience in BK is as a debtor and not someone in the industry.

I will be a guru too, in about 10 more posts. The label guru has to do with total number of posts, it is automatic, and has nothing to do with what you actually post, only how many posts you make.

I assumed and still do that most people on here are Pro Se, and I was offering some insight.

Well actually, I believe if you look at the statistics, no, the vast majority of us used a lawyer. Most of us filed in a hurry, without having time to think it through and study on what to do, and therefore needed legal advice. Dont you know what assuming gets you?

[BKParalegal]

Arkie,

Well as it was asked of me by Flaming, an explanation should be put next to "Guru" and that you are only "Guru"'s of posting and not "Guru"'s of BK.

And who cares if I ass u me d that most were Pro Se, my point, if you caught it, was I was trying to assist those people who may need more information. Those are the people I am trying to help. So you are going to be a Guru too.... huh..... well... I don't know even know what to say about that.