bank statements/pay stubs question

[Tabbygirl]

I've been reading through all the info and forms with a vengeance, and started to compile information. The Nolo book will follow later this weekend. I'm considering pro se, hence my question....

About the bank statements and pay stubs--on the Statement of Financial Affairs, they only ask for figures and source of income; it doesn't appear you attach anything to that when you file, correct? Same for bank statements, correct?

If the trustee needs to review the pay stubs or bank statements, does he or she notify you in advance of the 341 as to what's needed or how is that handled? I do electronic banking and don't get statements so I guess I would just print the register from the website--would that suffice? That also would have all the direct deposit information.

Or do most people go in with a huge stack of receipts (pay stubs, credit card statements, bank statements etc) and everything on the off chance the trustee might ask for something....?

Just curious as to how the trustees handle that...I'm in the Western District of Texas, if that helps.

Thanks for your help--this forum is a wealth of information and I am learning so much.

[BK2008]

IU'm in the Eastern Distric of Texas, and while I had a lawyer, you need to be prepared.

My trustee sent me a letter of what he wanted:

3 months of bank statements (I printed them from online, I don't get them in the mail)
3 months of any other savings, ira's, etc (again, from online, no paper)
Tax returns for 2 years.
Home mortgage loan papers if purchased within a year
Home Sales documents if home was sold in the last year.
Home Listing Agreement if home was listed in the last year.
Paycheck stubs- I covered 3 months prior to filing up to the date of the 341.

My credit card statements weren't necessary, my attorney ran my credit, so everything appeared on that to do the matrix and what those balances were. But I would pull those together, in the event you need them.

[AngelinaCat]

Good luck to you filing pro se. We had to have the six months of paystubs, etc. for our attorney and her assistant to figure out all our income and the sources of it. The numbers were taken and averaged out for the 6 months. They also wanted that stuff to see if we passed the Means Test or not. Now our attorney and her assistant were so damned un-communicative, I honestly don't know what the results of our Means Test was. It was probably way over, because thanks to her non-communication, we did all the wrong things possible to do in the six months prior to filing, and are paying for it now in more ways than one.

Just be sure to read this forum and that book and make sure you get yourself educated. Good luck to you!

I should add that we are an Asset case and are having to $450.00 a month to the Trustee to buy our stuff back. Had we been better educated by the attorney or found this forum first, I think we could have managed our situation much better.

[Tabbygirl]

My trustee sent me a letter of what he wanted:

3 months of bank statements (I printed them from online, I don't get them in the mail)
3 months of any other savings, ira's, etc (again, from online, no paper)
Tax returns for 2 years.
Home mortgage loan papers if purchased within a year
Home Sales documents if home was sold in the last year.
Home Listing Agreement if home was listed in the last year.
Paycheck stubs- I covered 3 months prior to filing up to the date of the 341.

My credit card statements weren't necessary, my attorney ran my credit, so everything appeared on that to do the matrix and what those balances were. But I would pull those together, in the event you need them.

So the trustee contacted you in the advance of the 341, to let you know exactly what he or she needed...? That's my major concern; I also don't get pay stubs during the summer (I'm a teacher--my pay is super consistent to the point that it's public record on the school district website) so I would have to get those as well (a trick in itself as the payroll person is notorious for not returning calls, emails and the like. We are a super small ISD w/one person who does that stuff)(but I have direct deposit, so the $$ is always deposited, which the trustee could see).

That's a good idea about pulling a credit report to do the matrix--does the bankruptcy trustee do the same?

If I know what to bring in advance, I can handle it. I don't have assets other than household stuff and the autos, and my husband told me today that he's interested in turning in the Nissan lease just to get out of it. Commuting/gas is killing us and he wants to buy a motorcycle (reliable older one from a co-worker for under $1000) and a beater car for when it rains/is too cold. I hate to say this, but it makes sense. He's not filing, so one thing I would have to research is that if purchases the motorcycle in advance of turning in the car, would that cause an issue.

[fltoo]

Hey Angie,

Question about paying back a so-called frauduent transfer. I asked my lawyer about paying it back myself in case it became a problem.

He said I could, but usually the trustee wants it paid back within just a few months. How long were you given to pay it back?

[BK2008]

So the trustee contacted you in the advance of the 341, to let you know exactly what he or she needed...? Yes, I received a letter directly from the Trustee as well as my attorney.

I also don't get pay stubs during the summer (I'm a teacher--my pay is super consistent to the point that it's public record on the school district website) so I would have to get those as well (a trick in itself as the payroll person is notorious for not returning calls, emails and the like. We are a super small ISD w/one person who does that stuff)(but I have direct deposit, so the $$ is always deposited, which the trustee could see).

Seems to me you need to get those stubs, they show all of your deductions for taxes, insurance, dues and what not. Far more detailed than a bank statement. If your payroll person is that much of a lazy***, you might need to jump above her to get it. It's not rocket science to provide them (I am a HR/Payroll/Staff Accountant...takes 10 minutes of my time to reproduce a years worth of payroll records) The Trustee will almost certainly be asking about them.

That's a good idea about pulling a credit report to do the matrix--does the bankruptcy trustee do the same?

I don't think they do that directly, but you can pull it yourself, because you will need them for your matrix, and perhaps as proof of your debt.

If I know what to bring in advance, I can handle it. I don't have assets other than household stuff and the autos, and my husband told me today that he's interested in turning in the Nissan lease just to get out of it. Commuting/gas is killing us and he wants to buy a motorcycle (reliable older one from a co-worker for under $1000) and a beater car for when it rains/is too cold. I hate to say this, but it makes sense. He's not filing, so one thing I would have to research is that if purchases the motorcycle in advance of turning in the car, would that cause an issue

Even If you are not both filing, are you going to relinquish your lease in the BK (assuming both of your names are on the lease)? If so, then I don't see a problem with replacing your car with a car, you need it to make a living. Not a new BMW, mind you, but something reasonable and inexpensive. As for him buying a new MC, the only thing I can see is that 1) it needs to be in his name only 2) the funds coming from a joint account might cause a question from the Trustee.

[BKParalegal]

In regards to paycheck stubs, the BK Code requires you to file your last 60 days of paycheck stubs with the petition. If you didn't get paid during that time, than you file an affidavit of no income. Once you file, you must send your most recent tax returns (2007) to the Chapter 7 trustee assigned to your case. All the other stuff, bank statements, past tax returns, etc. are not required to file but may be requested by the Trustee. All this is in regards to filing pro se, if you are using an attorney, then they need 6 months pay stubs,and 3 years tax returns to do the schedules.

Good Luck

[Tabbygirl]

Seems to me you need to get those stubs, they show all of your deductions for taxes, insurance, dues and what not. Far more detailed than a bank statement. If your payroll person is that much of a lazy***, you might need to jump above her to get it. It's not rocket science to provide them (I am a HR/Payroll/Staff Accountant...takes 10 minutes of my time to reproduce a years worth of payroll records) The Trustee will almost certainly be asking about them.

Yes, she is, sadly. I've had to call about 4 or 5 times in the past to request a clarification on type of leave I took and she never returned my call or emails. Granted,THAT wasn't a huge deal, but it's like that any time any of us have concerns with direct deposit changes, HR questions or anything. Small school district; I am sure she is overworked and busy but we all are....

I looked at the court's local rules, just out of curiosity, and this is cut and pasted--OK, am I confusing myself, but does item 1 say payment advices aren't required unless requested?! And then item 2 means that if requested, I have to get them in within 15 days?

I also looked at the "order of documents" as to the submission of the petition on the court's website, and I can't figure out where to put the pay stubs (if needed at the time of filing) in the packet of papers...I'll have to call and ask the clerk's office again. Fortunately they are helpful. And nice, so far.

b) Payment Advices

Effective as to cases filed on or after October 17, 2005, copies of all payment advices or other evidence of payment received by individual debtors within 60 days before the date of the filing of the petition from any employer of the debtor (1) shall not be filed with the Court unless otherwise ordered,

Either way, I am going to email her and if I don't get a response I'll email again w/ cc to the superintendent. THAT will make some fur fly, although I'll probably get the evil eye or something....I think she can even just send the records as an attachment to an email and I can print them at home which means she doesn't even have to walk to the printer! (the district won't mail us pay stubs unless we give them a SASE--for real.)

I fortunately just printed my husband's (have to include his income even if I file individually) since his pay stubs are online. Piece of cake.

Even If you are not both filing, are you going to relinquish your lease in the BK (assuming both of your names are on the lease)? If so, then I don't see a problem with replacing your car with a car, you need it to make a living. Not a new BMW, mind you, but something reasonable and inexpensive. As for him buying a new MC, the only thing I can see is that 1) it needs to be in his name only 2) the funds coming from a joint account might cause a question from the Trustee.

I think the plan, as of now, is to relinquish the leased car; both our names are on the lease. I can assure you no BMWs...I was thinking more like a Honda. The MC would be in only his name; we live 100 miles round-trip from his work and gas really is killing us.

I am so very grateful for all the input. You all don't know how much this helps me.

[soleprop]

they've given you good input here; the best though is to call the clerk for your district's bk court and ask for any filing preferences they have. they're happy to tell you up front rather than disappoint stressed out filers when they come with insufficient documentation or the wrong stuff.

example, even though the means test says not to fill the rest of it out if you've got primarily nonconsumer debt, my district still wants you to fill it out (in violation of the form's own instructions). glad i called and they told me, or i'd have had to go home and fill the rest in.

regarding general documentation you might need....just some ideas:

it may be overkill but i am filing pro se primarily nonconsumer so i'm just covering my bases:

i have called and requested bank statements going back three years and i have itemized those statements into expense categories listed in schedule J; i have paystubs going back 12 months (with the last 60 days clipped together for filing); i have the last 3 years of filed taxes; i have all three credit reports; i have every document sent by each creditor organized in an expandafolder, and i have all paper receipts organized by month as well as by personal/business expense.

it all fits into a small artsy cardboard filing box and i plan to have that with at my 341 in case the trustee asks for anything. i'm going with the murphy's law that says something about 'be prepared and sure enough, you won't need any of it.' that's the kind of 341 and bk experience i want to have, though!

better to have it than be stressed out and scrambling for it, in my opinion.

[Priceless ProSe]

they've given you good input here; the best though is to call the clerk for your district's bk court and ask for any filing preferences they have. they're happy to tell you up front rather than disappoint stressed out filers when they come with insufficient documentation or the wrong stuff.

example, even though the means test says not to fill the rest of it out if you've got primarily nonconsumer debt, my district still wants you to fill it out (in violation of the form's own instructions). glad i called and they told me, or i'd have had to go home and fill the rest in.

regarding general documentation you might need....just some ideas:

it may be overkill but i am filing pro se primarily nonconsumer so i'm just covering my bases:

i have called and requested bank statements going back three years and i have itemized those statements into expense categories listed in schedule J; i have paystubs going back 12 months (with the last 60 days clipped together for filing); i have the last 3 years of filed taxes; i have all three credit reports; i have every document sent by each creditor organized in an expandafolder, and i have all paper receipts organized by month as well as by personal/business expense.

it all fits into a small artsy cardboard filing box and i plan to have that with at my 341 in case the trustee asks for anything. i'm going with the murphy's law that says something about 'be prepared and sure enough, you won't need any of it.' that's the kind of 341 and bk experience i want to have, though!

better to have it than be stressed out and scrambling for it, in my opinion.

Well Said, totally agree with this. Im having my 341 very soon and although I have been asked for nothing I will bring everything I can get my hands on.

[AngelinaCat]

Hey Angie,

Question about paying back a so-called frauduent transfer. I asked my lawyer about paying it back myself in case it became a problem.

He said I could, but usually the trustee wants it paid back within just a few months. How long were you given to pay it back?

Hi fltoo: I am not sure what you are asking. If you are referring to the paybacks mentioned in my post above, we will be paying $450.00 to buy our stuff back throught the month of April 2009. Then we should be done with that.

If you are referring to other posts elsewhere, wherein we have made an agreement with the Trustee for us to pay back $5K rather than him go after our payees, then our agreement is this: We get a stipend from a trust set up in an anuity that is a yearly payout. From this amount, we pay our property taxes, our health insurance, and other expenses. We expect to pay the 5k in a ump sum on or before Feb. 15, 2009.

Good luck to you.

[fltoo]

Yes, was asking about paying the trustee instead of him going after the person we paid. My lawyer said that the trustee probably would not let me pay it on a monthly basis, but would want the bulk of it upfront.

Thanks Angie

[killbill]

Hi,
I understand that all the pay stubs during the 6 months prior to filing bankruptcy is required and should be sent to the Trustee. But does any pay stub need to be sent to Trustee after filing and before 341 meeting?

For example, I file my petition for Chapter 7 on Feb 15th and I get the 341 meeting scheduled on March 22th. While filing on Feb 15th, I provided all the 6 month pay stubs till Jan 31st. Now that I have already filed and my 341 meeting is scheduled next Month, do I need to send any pay stub for February to the Trustee?

Thanks.

[jennordhavn]

Hi,
I understand that all the pay stubs during the 6 months prior to filing bankruptcy is required and should be sent to the Trustee. But does any pay stub need to be sent to Trustee after filing and before 341 meeting?

For example, I file my petition for Chapter 7 on Feb 15th and I get the 341 meeting scheduled on March 22th. While filing on Feb 15th, I provided all the 6 month pay stubs till Jan 31st. Now that I have already filed and my 341 meeting is scheduled next Month, do I need to send any pay stub for February to the Trustee?

Thanks.

My Trustee requested my six months prior to filing pay stubs as well as my most recent.

[nervousss]

Definately call to see what they want. You could even call your trustees office, once you find out who it is, and ask their paralegal.

I personally would rather be safe than sorry, and bring with you any documents you *may* need. If she doesn't ask for them, don't submit them, but have them with you just in case.

My lawyer automatically sent 3 months worth of paystubs, and then the trustee asked for two months worth of bank statements. My lawyer told me that she didn't always do that, which is why he hadn't included it.

They will tell you what you need, don't worry! You will probably need both, but you may just need paystubs. Also, they are not idiots, if your summer pay information is included on your other paychecks, they will be able to figure it out.