Online scedule I and J

[Dennis1971]

I was wandering if there is a place online where you can take the schedule I and J. I found a place where I could take the online means test and we pass it no problems. I was just wandering if we have to much disosable income or not to file a 7, we are under the median for a family of five. If you are under the median - do you still have to take the schedule I and J test?
Thanks Dennis

[Phillymanhere]

Schedules I and J aren't really "tests" as such. Yes, you do have to fill them out, whether you're above median or not.

I and J are extremely important ... look around the site and you'll see threads on these topics. You can look them up. Or do a search (from the top of the page) on Schedule I and/or Schedule J.

There is a lot of discussion about how to fill out both forms, especially perhaps Schedule J, which indicates how much money you actually spend each month. You cannot have roughly more than $100 left over each month to qualify for chapter 7 ... But your best bet is to start reading through old threads.

There is also a "stickie" on expenses above ... you want to read that.

[epiphany]

There is a lot of discussion about how to fill out both forms, especially perhaps Schedule J, which indicates how much money you actually spend each month. You cannot have roughly more than $100 left over each month to qualify for chapter 7 ... But your best bet is to start reading through old threads.

Just wanted to qualify your statement so there's no confusion: You can qualify for a chapter 7 and have more than 100 left over at the end of the month if you are below the accepted median income for your area.

ep

[Phillymanhere]

hey epiphany,

I thought you could NOT have more than $100 or so left over in income, whether above the median or below. That's what I've been reading repeatedly here--that even if you're below the median income, if you have money left over, the trustee could conclude that you can make payments with it, making payments meaning a shift to a chapter 13.

That's why the Schedule J is so important, as I understand it. But you know what? I hope you're right, because under your theory, my chapter 7 will be much easier. Hopefully some others will weigh in.

[laurannm]

is the $100 a hard number? I would have thought that the number\threshold would be the same as it is on the means test ($166 or whatever that number is). Then again, this is BK and that would make way too much sense

[epiphany]

hey epiphany,

I thought you could NOT have more than $100 or so left over in income, whether above the median or below. That's what I've been reading repeatedly here--that even if you're below the median income, if you have money left over, the trustee could conclude that you can make payments with it, making payments meaning a shift to a chapter 13.

That's why the Schedule J is so important, as I understand it. But you know what? I hope you're right, because under your theory, my chapter 7 will be much easier. Hopefully some others will weigh in.

'

What I stated is my understanding. I did a quick search here and do see the differing opinions so could find nothing valuable to post from this site (though I'm sure it's here somewhere). But I did find the following link on the web, which entirely supports this. Hopefully one of the gurus will chime in and put this to rest. Here is the link I found in my quick search:

http://rjabankruptcy.com/meanstest.php

ep

[epiphany]

Also found this from wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy_Abuse_Prevention_and_Consumer_Protection_Act

ep

[Phillymanhere]

Laurammn,

The $100 is an approximate figure, the safest from what I can tell. I think above $166 a month left over draws certain scrutiny and shifts the burden on the filer to prove he can't qualify for a chap 13. The law is rarely black-and-white; it's all about presumptions, as in the burden of proof shifts to the trustee to prove you don't qualify for a chapter 7 if you have less than $100 left over.)

Epiphany,

I think your links are incorrect. EVERYONE has to fill out Schedule I and Schedule J.

I think the confusion lies with the form 22A--the median income means test form. Yes, if you are below the median for your state, you do not have to fill out the rest of the 22A; these are the sections where you to add up expenses based on the irs standards.

But everyone still has to fill out Schedule I and Schedule J. Schedule J is where you list your actual expenses, not the IRS allowable expenses. If you have disposable income left over on the Schedule J form, the trustee could push you into a 13. After all, if we have some money left to pay creditors, why should be the court not force us to pay creditors?

One of the moderators here described a case where a young man had income below the median, but he was living at home and not paying anything for food, car, gas, or rent. Therefore he was forced into a chapter 13 because he had a significant amount of money left at the end of the month (once his debts were discharged), money that the trustee thought should be applied to his old debts.

[lrprn]

For the OP, here's a link to the current Schedules I & J along with all the other bk forms - http://www.uscourts.gov/bkforms/bank....html#official. The required Schedules are Forms B-6A through B-6J at the top of the page - Schedule I is B-6I and Schedule J is B-6J.

The Means Test for Ch 7 and Ch 13 are towards the bottom of the first section - look for B-22A for Ch 7 and B-22C for Ch 13.

And for the discussion about $100-160/month disposable income... If the filer completes the Means Test and the Means Test shows "presumption of abuse", then the Schedules are used to determine if disposable income exists at a level sufficient to support a Ch 13 plan.

In most courts that's the 'greater than $160/month' figure = automatic push into Ch 13. Between $100-160/mo the decision whether the filer can support a Ch 13 plan depends on how the trustee interprets the filer's individual circumstances. Under $100/mo disposable income there's not enough to pay creditors what they would have received in a Ch 7 so a Ch 13 plan isn't possible.

When there is a discrepancy between disposable income showing on the Means Test vs. Schedule I minus J, because of case law decisions most courts are going by the disposable income showing on Schedule I minus J to set the filer's Ch 13 payment. This is why expenses on Schedule J are highly influential factors when determining disposable income.

[CompTweaker]

Try this means test: http://www.legalconsumer.com/bankruptcy/means-test/

It also computes your standard expenses allowed.

[Phillymanhere]

Here's a link on all this from the Nolo Press book.

http://www.nolo.com/product.cfm/objectID/F87C0B36-D2FB-4FE2-801B76AD0792C01A/catID/847CCA51-130F-47D1-920751FBD79C7570/sampleChapter/4/213/

[scubaman]

100 month

This might sound lame but so be it. When you talk about the 100's left over do you mean what you have left over prior to BK paying all your CC's, debts, rents, gas etc. Or is this when you stop paying debts, CC and just pay your essentials prior to BK. or does this mean after you have filed ch 7 bk?
Wow sorry but this is somewhat confusing.
thanks for you feedback.

[lrprn]

This might sound lame but so be it. When you talk about the 100's left over do you mean what you have left over prior to BK paying all your CC's, debts, rents, gas etc. Or is this when you stop paying debts, CC and just pay your essentials prior to BK. or does this mean after you have filed ch 7 bk?
Wow sorry but this is somewhat confusing.
thanks for you feedback.

The $100/month is what shows as disposable income on the Means Test and/or Schedules (depending on which your local bk court uses to define disposable income).

And I know - probably still clear as mud - blame your 2005 congressional reps for passing this poorly conceived and badly written law with these ridiculous arbitrary requirements.

[scubaman]

So this is when you have given your aty all of your CC bills, and rent, irs payments , food, etc,etc.?
Thanks for your information, oh N. CAL area.
Thanks

[Phillymanhere]

scubaman,

The $100 does not include your current credit payments. It is excluding them ... But ... it has been talked about a lot on this board: most people will have a lot LESS left over at the end of the month than they think.

Many people filing for bk have been out of whack and out of sorts in spending money for a while. They forget the cost of car repairs, doctors, dentists, tolls, etc. I was paying $600 or so a month in credit card payments and stopped in April. At the end of April, I had less than $100 left over. And I didn't consider myself splurging at all.

I managed to save some money in May by really really scrimpting. But this month the spending is going up again ... I have to get my car inspected, new registration, etc. I also have to buy an air conditioner.

I don't know your situation, but look around on the board here for old threads; most people have a lot less left over than they think they would.