Husband making bad matters worse - Help!

[Stuck]

Hi all,

Anyone with patience and a calculator can figure out we need to file asap. DH is very upset because he filed almost 10 years ago and feels like a failure. I will have to file with him because I'm on the mortgage. He is dragging his feet and moaning and groaning and getting mad at me because we have to file even though he readily admits our being brought to this is his fault. He is also beating himself up because this is his 2nd and he feels stupid. Even worse, he keeps wanting to make decisions based on his emotions.
He will not help me with any of the research or number crunching and gets sulky when he sees me working on it, or paperwork relating to it.

I was initially very upset and probably will be again at some point but I feel now is not the time to be emotional. I am trying to be businesslike, as recommended by this board, and want to do this as strategically as possible. My husband is being judgemental about this because he interpets this as not caring that we are shirking our financial obligations. Of course, I care, and am embarassed to be declaring but I feel if I am going to take such a huge hit on my credit and dignity, it is my right to profit (not the right term but I can't think of the word I need) as much as legally possible.

This is really difficult for me too, but he is so focused on how he feels that he isn't considering how I feel and he isn't helping me at all, if anything he hinders.

What can I do to get him to get on board with this as my partner, instead of another stressor in an already uber-stressful situation? He isn't denying that our only recourse is to file but he is acting as if this is something I am forcing him to do when in reality, his excessive debt is the problem. I am scared and uncertain and need him to get his head in the game and figure all this out with me.

Any words of wisdom?

[Cali]

First off both of you need to not take this personally. This is a business decision, nothing more.

I am not trying to be mean, but if he was that concern about not having to file again he wouldn't have gotten you to the point you are now.

Tell him he needs to suck it up and get on board so you can get on with your lives. This will be a load off your back once it is done and over with. The longer he waits the more it going to stress you out.

The only reason I have to do everything for us, is because my hubby is deployed.

[CaraMia007]

Sorry to hear that you're having a tough time! IMHO: It's so important for couples to support each other and not point fingers, and yes, definitely look at it from a business perspective.

It's tough being where you are in the relationship, i.e. being the one doing the research, crunching the numbers, in some sense having the responsibility of directing how your BK will go? That's where I am too, as I'm the "nerd". My DH has had times (many) too where he is grumpy or acting stressed out, which in turn can stress me out. One thing I do try to remember when he's like that is that men have that "gene" that says they must be strong and fight to protect and provide for their families... it's no small matter when they feel like they are failures in this area! Sorry to stereotype and all that, but there's a reason that generalizations are formed LOL.

I have found what works for us is for me to do the research and crunch numbers, then present DH with my findings and options in short bursts. If I can present the info in a reasonable, detached manner, it's easier for him to respond in the same way. Maybe not fair to have to do it that way... but peace in my home is more critical to me than fairness.

Wishing you well in this difficult process.

[Flamingo]

Instead of pointing fingers at each other, take this opportunity for both of you to figure out how you got to where you are and how he and you both allowed it to happen. I don't know if he was hiding debt from you or what but it appears he had debt issues in the past and cannot get beyond what is making him stay in debt. Unless you want to spend your lives in the debt cycle and filing BK to get out of it when you legally can, this is the perfect opportunity to get it on the table and get it solved. Filing will give you that fresh start that you will need to start over. You will both have to work hard not to allow it to happen again.

Best of luck to you both.

[Phillymanhere]

Stuck,
My heart goes out to you and your DH during this time of stress and strain and many other emotions.

Is there any chance you can get to a counselor of some sort? Even for a session or two? ... Ideally you and DH would go, but it might be helpful even if you went alone.

If counselor isn't a possibility, what about a pastor? I am no longer married, but I can very easily recall feeling similar to the way you feel now. Going to a counselor was one way I was able to get some distance from my ex's fears and all.

In your situation, isolation is not healthy. I encourage you to find someone, even if it's a friend you can trust, to bounce all of this off of.

good luck.

[JRScott]

My father had two bankruptcies, one in the 70s and one in the 80s. The first was caused by a gambling addiction. He learned his lesson and stopped gambling. The second by credit card debt , and I think he learned his lesson as they don't seem to use many credit cards anymore.

It is not entirely the fault of the consumer. Our government and business practice predatory lending and flood our mailboxes with offers that seem to good. We fall into the trap and once your in the trap its hard to get out. It's like if you make a monkey trap. You place something in the trap that the monkey wants...like a banana. The opening is large enough to get an empty hand through, but not large enough to get a hand holding something through. We reach in and grab the credit and thus we are trapped. It has happened to all of us at one time or another.

Give him some encouragement, perhaps even accept some of the blame so that he can have some relief.

[Flamingo]

There was a marvelous discussion on the radio that I listened to on the way to work yesterday morning. It was talking about the children of Boomer's and this day and age of credit and getting what they want and getting it now and not worrying about what they have to spend due to all the easy credit that has been out there. Also along with that are many people with addictive personalities who just love to spend and don't know when to stop or how to control it. There are a number of factors that can contribute to consistent overspending and there are many factors also out of one's control. The world in the past 20 to 30 years has not helped. My parents made our generation work for what we have and not too much was given to us. However, we as Boomers watched out parents start using credit and getting things much easier and quicker and not having to save and wait. Credit became easily available to our generation and we utilized it to buy our kids all they wanted because we were not going to let them suffer as we did and have to wait and save for something. That has really backfired for a lot of Boomer parents and our kids who can be anywhere from early 40's through 30's and 20's are saddled with tremendous credit card and mortgage debt due to wanting and wanting it now and wanting it bigger and better. Those McMansions are now sitting with for sale signs and foreclosure signs in front of them. How badly our generation and our children wanted that big house and we did not have the savings to fall back on, or little debt, when a problem hit.

After this economy, people are going to have to learn to change their ways of spending and living and it is already occurring just as the 1929 Stock Market crash and resulting Depression forced many people to live otherwise also. Just as in the OP's situation, reality hits hard if you allow things to get out of control.

To the OP; as suggested by the previous poster and as I stated in my previous posting, use this opportunity as a warning shot that something is wrong and needs to be fixed and your hubby needs to evaluate himself or talk with someone as to why he has debt issues and maybe puts the blame on others. Hopefully in 10 years from now you will not be worrying about filing BK again but have a new stress and debt free life.

[jenopher]

I have just had to be matter of fact about it. My husband mopes. He is used to coming home from work and going somewhere, anywhere with me, Home Depot, Starbucks, Dinner, grocery store, Target, Rite Aid, seriously he's addicted to shopping or just going somewhere. He has issues relaxing due to having ADD. So, I have had to be like the parent and just say no, we can't go anywhere unless it's for a walk. When he pouts, I just leave the room and wait until his attitude changes, just like a child. He has to change some long term bad habits. It's been hard, but it's slowly getting easier for him. He is so excited that tonight is our date night and we actually have a little cash allotted for going out. I try to maintain a joyful front when he's whining and not get pissed (on the outside) If I get angry it can escalate real easy to an argument that no one will walk away a winner, and he gets rewarded for acting pouty. If I act totally happy and go do something with the kids, he gets nothing for pouting and gets over it faster. It's like an addiction for him, so I have to be the stronger one till he gets stronger. Maybe if you act like everything is great and after the BK you'll get a fresh start etc, etc, maybe it will rub off on him. Just be matter of fact, this is what we have to do, these are the facts, and either leave the room or quickly change the subject. Don't engage with any arguments’ he may try to start. My husband had tried to begin several that could've turned out really ugly if I played into it. I guess it's like during PMS I can be a tiny bit snotty or moody and he just ignores it, forgives and forgets. This credit addiction is like his PMS, he doesn't mean the things he says, usually apologizes later, he just has emotions built up that he doesn't know how to deal with. Try to ignore that and do what needs to be done. He'll get over it and probably be grateful you handled it so well.

[Help!]

OP, my heart goes out to you. I know how hard it is to remove the emotion and self esteem from the BK process, but I agree with Cali on this... take your heart out of it and look at it simply as a business decision. Also agree with Flamingo on the lifestyle that is becoming the norm in America. We are used to luxuries the generations before us never had (or at least had to save up for) and gen-x'ers are drowning in debt trying to "keep up with the Joneses." You have to wonder how we can gauge the strength of our economy on things like retail sales, new home sales, etc. when these are all funded by credit. That only works if everyone keeps making their minimum payments - not possible for many of us now that the price of gas has doubled in two years and consumer goods are more expensive because of it.

How long has it been since true wealth was understood as net worth, not the emblem on a car, the pattern on a handbag or the type of neighborhood a person lives in? Having gone through this process, we've had our eyes opened and we "get it". Given the state of the economy, I think we (collectively), on this forum, are the tip of the iceberg.

[Cali]

Is he on meds for ADD?

He has issues relaxing due to having ADD. So, I have had to be like the parent and just say no, we can't go anywhere unless it's for a walk.

[jenopher]

Cali, yes he is on meds for it. Military rules state he can't take the stimulant type, which work the best. So he takes a different med called Strattera, which helps some, but not nearly as good as something like Adderall or Ritalin would. Strattera helps with focus and anxiety, but not so much for hyperactivity and impulsivness. After sitting at work and controlling the hyperactivity all day, he feels he needs to do something when he gets home. Shopping for something is just a bad habit, he can still do something, we just need to change what it is we do. We lived in Okinawa for 3 years and our after work "habit" was to walk 3 miles every evening. Shopping was very limited there, especially for big things like boats and motocross stuff, although he did find a motocross shop and did buy our son one motorcycle there. We had to save and pay cash as they do not do credit there. We moved back and he just got caught up in having all these toys now. His Dad owns a cabin in Park City, so he bought season passes for everyone and all new ski/snowboard gear as well. You seriously would have thought we won the lottery. A little also has to do with coming back from Iraq, he was there for the Fallujah happenings. He really had the I could die at any moment so I'd better have all the fun I can right now attitude. That lasted for about a year. So while yes the facts show that filing BK is mostly due to him, you can't really be angry at someone who has ADD and has some emotional issues from being in a war zone. We are over the worst of it and just working on developing new habits. They recommended counseling to him, but he doesn't want to go. He said he'd only go if I went with him. We were recently denied access to marital counseling for us through their system. I guess it's only covered for dependents, so I have to request it for me and then it's covered. My dad is actually a psychologist, but he doesn't feel comfortable seeing him. Lol, I guess I can't blame him, even though my Dad would be professional, you can't help but think he'd be on his daughters side. I can't say I've been perfect either. I do love my designer jeans,and don't suppose I really needed 5 pairs even if they were cheaper on Ebay. But they look sooo good on!! LOl, bad habit, bad bad habit!!

We'll be ok, hopefully no more war scars for a long time, or ever!

[Cali]

We just found out in December that our 16 yr old daughter has ADD. She is on Adderall.

Many of friends and my hubby have been to Iraq/Afghanistan. I know people that have lost limbs, some didn't come back, many come back in a different state of mind.

I really think he should go to counseling and he doesn't need you to go with him.

Cali, yes he is on meds for it. Military rules state he can't take the stimulant type, which work the best. So he takes a different med called Strattera, which helps some, but not nearly as good as something like Adderall or Ritalin would. Strattera helps with focus and anxiety, but not so much for hyperactivity and impulsivness. After sitting at work and controlling the hyperactivity all day, he feels he needs to do something when he gets home. Shopping for something is just a bad habit, he can still do something, we just need to change what it is we do. We lived in Okinawa for 3 years and our after work "habit" was to walk 3 miles every evening. Shopping was very limited there, especially for big things like boats and motocross stuff, although he did find a motocross shop and did buy our son one motorcycle there. We had to save and pay cash as they do not do credit there. We moved back and he just got caught up in having all these toys now. His Dad owns a cabin in Park City, so he bought season passes for everyone and all new ski/snowboard gear as well. You seriously would have thought we won the lottery. A little also has to do with coming back from Iraq, he was there for the Fallujah happenings. He really had the I could die at any moment so I'd better have all the fun I can right now attitude. That lasted for about a year. So while yes the facts show that filing BK is mostly due to him, you can't really be angry at someone who has ADD and has some emotional issues from being in a war zone. We are over the worst of it and just working on developing new habits. They recommended counseling to him, but he doesn't want to go. He said he'd only go if I went with him. We were recently denied access to marital counseling for us through their system. I guess it's only covered for dependents, so I have to request it for me and then it's covered. My dad is actually a psychologist, but he doesn't feel comfortable seeing him. Lol, I guess I can't blame him, even though my Dad would be professional, you can't help but think he'd be on his daughters side. I can't say I've been perfect either. I do love my designer jeans,and don't suppose I really needed 5 pairs even if they were cheaper on Ebay. But they look sooo good on!! LOl, bad habit, bad bad habit!!

We'll be ok, hopefully no more war scars for a long time, or ever!

[FreshLikeADaisy]

Stuck, when someone is lost in their emotions it's very, very difficult to pull them back out.

I don't know how much you know about Borderline Personality Disorder (and I'm not suggesting your husband has this!!! it's far more serious than the situation you presented) but the ways that are suggested for non-BPD people -- spouses, family members, whoever -- to deal with the person who had BPD when they are caught up in their emotion sounds like they would be helpful to you as well. Basically, you reiterate the emotion back at them in a calm, non emotional way (i.e. "It sounds like you're really upset about this...") until that person calms down, and then the real issue is put forth to them in a straightforward manner that they can swallow and not be triggered by. Any variation on this theme would probably help you: deal with his emotion first, and then baby-step into the bk situation if you can.

The other thing that occurred to me is that instead of having yes-no discussions on bk or no-bk, another alternative is to approach it backward: instead of listing out the reasons why you desperately need to file (of which he is already too well aware) say, "Okay, if you're dead set against it we won't file. But I need to know that you have a clear picture of the ways in which our life will continue to deteriorate if we don't file." Ask him calmly if he has a plan to deal with lawsuits, garnishments, repossessions, and the like. Don't get frustrated -- this is bound to bring up anger on his part -- but remain calm and say, "I really need to know. If you don't want to file, we won't file, but there has to be an alternate plan in place before we can go forward." Keep pressing for facts and ideas, and when he gets to a dead end you say, "Okay, but understand that garnishment of my wages [or whatever] is not acceptable to me. If we're not going to file, then you need to have alternatives in place now." Gently bring it back to him each time.

This may help him come to the place where HE says yes, let's file, and it's not just you saying you have to. It may not. But it will most certainly tell you what you can count on in the days to come from him. I can't tell from what you wrote, but sometimes something hurts so bad that we have to find someone, anyone, to blame -- even if it's the person that loves us most and is trying to save us! That may be where he is. In addition, if he has any kind of, I hate to say it, "mommy" issues, you sitting there doing due diligence with the papers and phone calls may be triggering those as well, more than you know. Again, I have no idea but these are things to be aware of as you try to move forward with him.

I applaud your ability to remain calm and detached when he gets like this, and I think you are absolutely right when you say it has saved you a lot of grief!!! Good luck to you!!!

[JollyGG]

most of us who are married and filed here faced the situation where one recognized the need to file before the other one. I saw it first in our family, or more accurately came to terms with it and accepted that we needed to do it. My husband needed more time. I basically went over our expenses, our assets, and our debts with him. Then I left it all in his hands. I told him that our marriage was more important than anything else in life to me and I would give him the time and space he needed to come to a decision about what he wanted to do. However, I told him that I couldn't live in limbo land forever. I asked him to make a decision in two weeks. He came back to me two days later and said let's do it. He eventually, just concluded that he trusted that I had done all the research that I didn't see another way out and that he saw that the indecission was driving me insane.

So perhaps it is time to give him all the information he needs to make a decision then give him the time and space he needs to come to the obvious conclusion.

To tell you the truth, we have found, that when it comes to finances it is best if one person deals with things at a time or it gets really confusing. So if that one person who has to deal with things is you - well, so be it. At least it will get done and you can start over.

[jenopher]

Cali,
'I' know he doesn't need me to go with him, HE thinks he needs me to go with him. I'm not going to argue with him about not needing me. Once we go I think he'll realize that on his own. I actually think it would be nice to go separately so I can express my concerns. I know he'll minimize things when put on the spot.

Stuck,
Haven't heard fom you in a few days. Hopefully things are improving.