Over the median ch 7.......

[sunshine mary]

I never knew you could be 10-30k over and still get a C7. 

Me either I had A LOT of misconceptions, that's for sure !!!!!!!!!!! Thank god I found a very knowledgeable attorney.

[Help!]

We are well over the median and I have advice for you. Brace yourself for your 341 hearing. Our lawyer did nothing to prepare us for the US Trustee's aggressive questioning. We also received a 6 page list of documents we now must submit, detailing every dime of every dollar that passed through our hands in the past year. Do you want to explain why you spent $27 at Subway when you could have cooked a meal at home? Do you want to explain If you are at all unsure about ch. 7, my advice is DON'T ATTEMPT IT!!!

[laurannm]

I am so sorry to hear about your meeting Help. Can you give us some more info on your situation? What state are you in? How far over the median are you? What types of docs are they requesting?

In any event try to hang in there. Everyone one these boards are here for you.

[dragonnfly]

help - Until after we filed I did not have $27 to spend at Subway. I seriously considered calling in sick to work one day because I didn't have enough gas. The absolute worst thing that would happen is we could be pushed into a 13. I wouldn't like that but I would survive. I dont see how we would survive money wise in a 13 but we would find a way I guess. I know we qualify for a 7, I would have always wondered if it would have worked out if we did what our first lawyer said and filed 13. Im hoping we dont get a US trustee like you got, I already know that our local trustee is a nice one and has a good relationship with my lawyer.

Our lawyer hopes we will be left alone because we tried several other things first. I got a better job, we tried the credit counceling (SP). I just hope hes right. I had to actually lie to the credit counceling about our expenses. They outright told us our best option was to file BK. I had to leave a few things out to get them to accept us. Regardless of what lots of people think they did help and I do believe it would have worked if we hadn't been in so deep. Im just still thankful every day when I get on Pacer and theres nothing new there. Trust me if there ever is something there you will hear about it. For now Im counting the days to the 341.

[woodj]

Had the third talk with the para today about our means test. She said we definitely have to file ch13. We are 33K over median with wifes income included, 13K over with just mine. (5 months 2 weeks down the road.) She told me some very disturbing information that I am not sure is true.
Cannot use house note in means test. Have to use standards.
Cannot use cellphone bill. (Maybe she is right, dunno.)
No one in Louisiana EVER get chapter 7 if they are above median.
I have an appointment on Monday to discuss the ch13. I need to find out more details about how they are calculating the means test. When I do it on-line, I am WAY in the negative when I only use my income.

Anyway, I will get as much info from the Monday meeting as I can, then make an appointment with another attorny. I am really hoping to file ch7.

[JRScott]

woodj it wouldn't hurt to get a second opinion.

On the means test you do have to use the standards, on your schedules you use your real expenses form what I've read and heard.
On the cellphone do you also have a landline? I'm not sure it makes a difference but it might.
Not sure about that in LA.

Get the info ready just in case though.

[laurannm]

Woodj, I'm pretty sure you are allowed to use your actual mortgage payment on the means test (it's one of the few actual expenses your allowed to use on the means). As JRScott suggested I would definitely get a 2nd opinion on that

[dragonnfly]

Woodj - One thing that I have definitly learned is that everything varies greatly from district to district and state to state. If everything was the same across the board this forumwould not be nearly as busy as it is. That would make too much sense. We have not heard a thing about our stimulus we received it on the 9th our lawyer told us he hadn't heard any trustee keeping it and we could spend it if we needed to but not on luxuries. I spent $29 dollars of it on mulch. Do your local howework. Your lawers may give you different answers then what you read on here, thats where you have to do the homework and figure out if that true in your area.

[woodj]

Thanks Dragonfly. I think I can wait six months until I file. During that six months I plan to see several lawyers and learn as much about local BK's as I can. I redid the internet means test and removed everything except my housenote and came up $ -20.00 when I only use my income. I also printed out the form B22A and will complete it based on the internet numbers. I think I will take it to my Monday appointment and get the lawyer to show me where I do not qualify. I am pretty sure I will not use the guy so to won't matter if I "rub him the wrong way" a little bit. I have several answers I want to get out of him first though.
Can house note be used?
Can car notes be used?
Do kids part-time income need to be included?
Use withheld taxes or actual taxes?
Can life insurance be used?
Can vehicles I am losing be used?
What is the purpose of schedule J? hehe
Anyway, the list will grow through the week-end. If anyone has any other questions, let me know. I plan on bringing a list. May as well get as much out of the free consultation as he can stand.

15 days (and counting) late on a couple of unsecured bills. Many more to come. So much for good interest rates!!!!

[MomIcantFindmy]

Woodj....I feel for you. My attorney was not using the right numbers either and keep telling me I should be in a 13.

Also, check to see if your courthouse publishes a calendar of 341 meetings and go watch a few. I quickly learned who the attorneys were in town who had respect from the judges and who in town was a moron. Despite what I would like to believe, the Judges here do seem to show a preference for certain attorneys. You will also see if any attorneys have clients over the median.

[Cali]

Can house note be used? Yes

Can car notes be used? Yes

Do kids part-time income need to be included? Probably.

Use withheld taxes or actual taxes? Actual taxes.

Can life insurance be used? Not sure

Can vehicles I am losing be used? Yes

What is the purpose of schedule J? On Schedule J you will list all of your household expenses including rent/mortgage, utilities, groceries, medical expenses, insurance, car/commuting, clothing, laundry, recreation, taxes, home maintenance, alimony/support payments, charitable contributions and more.

[FreshLikeADaisy]

Woodj, I'm glad you're going to be seeing more than one atty; many people here have seen an atty and then been relegated to a paralegal who gave them really bad info. Given that you were speaking with the paralegal and not the atty, that may be what happened to you. But even so, this is not a paralegal I would want filling out MY schedules!

Mom, great suggestion about visiting 341s. Just FYI, even if the calendar isn't published, a call or visit to the bk clerk asking when Chapter 7 341s are held should give the info needed. Definitely worth a couple hours visit for someone who will be filing soon (or already has) but doesn't know what to expect from a 341.

Dragonfly, I have nothing to add, I just wanted to say I wish you the best of luck and every success!!!

[laurannm]

Can house note be used? Yes

Can car notes be used? Yes

Do kids part-time income need to be included? Probably.

Use withheld taxes or actual taxes? Actual taxes.

Can life insurance be used? Not sure

Can vehicles I am losing be used? Yes

What is the purpose of schedule J? On Schedule J you will list all of your household expenses including rent/mortgage, utilities, groceries, medical expenses, insurance, car/commuting, clothing, laundry, recreation, taxes, home maintenance, alimony/support payments, charitable contributions and more.

Just a note about taxes on the means test, our attorney is saying we can use
taxes withheld on our means test (other attorney's we consulted with told us the same). This may vary from district to district

[leftyf]

Dragonfly...here is my story. I'm in the So. District of Ohio. About $12K over the median, but found attorney willing to go for the 7. Here is the timeline and info:

family of 4, income of $81K, median $69K, I think.
Filed ch 7 01/08
341 02/08
Extended date for creditor objections to 06/08, presumably to get tax refunds.
Hope to receive discharge by the end of 07/08

At my 341, my attorney (who has since quit) told me that he had already worked with the UST on something. He said he handled "it", so I'm assuming that was probably the review by the UST for presumption of abuse.
My new attorney, who I called last week for the first time, basically said I can do anything I want at this point (unless the trustee has told me not to.) Also, he indicated that I would have heard by now if they were trying to force a conversion to a 13. So, I've started back on the 401K contributions and cutting some expenses that I can get by without. I hope I don't regret this, but my new attorney sounded pretty confident that it was ok (for what that's worth.)
Also, I haven't seen any pacer activity for over a month which I'm taking as a good sign.
Just thought I'd chime in since I'm in the same state as you.
Lefty

[dragonnfly]

I glad to hear someone has almost made it without many obstacles. Im at one week and 5 days until our 341 and still havent heard anything. (knocking on wood right now) I really dont think we will hear much now at this point, its just going to be that 10 day wait after our 341 will be the next hurdle. We received our Stimulus and hearing nothing from anyone we spent it. Our lawyer said they generally go on the "dont ask dont tell" policy. Dont mention refunds and they would take them. We did not use any of our wildcard or cash exemption. I hope if something is mentioned we can ammend that amount. This time I thought would take forever to get here is arriving so fast. Im still jealous of the people on here that filed after me and have already have the 341 and are 15 or so days into the 60 day wait. I dont know what is with Ohio and the 60 days or so until the 341 hearing.

You didn't get actually interviewed by the UST at your 341? What kind of questions did the local trustee ask you? I thought for sure all the Over the median ones they would be asking questions. Gald to hear your on the way. Thanks for your story. Dragonnfly