Attorney asking for these ... why?

[Flamingo]

I understand your concerns and questions. We too could not understand why we had to break down every item in our house to provide on our forms as to our Chapter 13 so I know the difficulty and questions in the process. It sounds like the 47 page package/packet you initially received is a form packet asking for items that may be required in filing a Chapter 13. Since you are apparently filing a Chapter 7, you may want to call your attorney's office on Monday and see what applies to your situation in that packet and that may help you with some of your questions as they may not apply to you. I see one got resolved when you received your pre-filing packet today.

Paystubs are always asked for for a specific period of time. Those need to be provided as asked for to determine your income for a certain period of time and to show any fluctuations of income. Bank statements may be asked for later so have at least six months of them ready to go in case you need them. Bank statements are reviewed to check on transfers/deposits of funds and to check for fraud. I believe you are concerned about your hubby's overtime and the paystub request. Explain to your attorney that there may be some periods that your hubby has overtime and his past paystubs will show the fluctuations in his income to support that.

[TX Bluebonnet]

I'm going through the questionaire now and making a list of questions as I go that I need to ask the attorney about on Monday. Thanks for the response.

[FreshLikeADaisy]

TX Bluebonnet, just fyi, both the paystubs and a copy of any debt management plan worked out in pre-bk credit counseling are required by federal bk law. Like you, many filers never entered a debt management plan, and that is reflected on the credit counseling certificate as you saw, so no worries. As for paystubs, the minimum required by law is 60 days, but many trustees go back much farther than that. Another federal bk requirement is that you be current in your tax filings and present your most recent tax return; again, many trustees go back farther than that though I have only heard of going back the last 2 or 3 years, max.

The paystubs and tax returns are basic proof of income, so I wouldn't read too much into that. But the debt management plan has actually come up in a small number of bankruptcies, both for and against a debtor, in that it can be construed as demonstration of compliance, intent to pay debts, etc. In other words, if you participated in a debt management plan but didn't live up to your part of it, it could possibly be held against you, just as other cases where a debtor DID follow the plan to the fullest extent he could was held in his favor. Both this requirement as well as the credit counseling and education requirement are new law, so the kinks are still being worked out and there's not really any straight good answer to this. Many judges and attorneys feel that the whole business places an unneeded burden on a debtor, so it may well be changed in the next iteration of bk law... who knows.

Bank statement are frequently, but not always, requested by a trustee. There is no specific federal law that requires them beyond the expectation that you cooperate with your trustee to the fullest extent possible. So you may be asked for them, maybe not, or maybe only if there are questions the trustee feels those statements can answer. Impossible to know up front, actually.

Under the new bk law, a trustee's investigatory powers are much broader than in the old law, and they can pretty much ask for anything they think is germane to your case. Keeping in mind that the trustee has other cases as well, and doesn't want to have to sort through unnecessary piles of paperwork, documentation requests are pretty specific. They are OFTEN deeper and farther back than a person expects, but nothing you couldn't easily provide. Every trustee and district is different, so no one can really tell you for sure what your trustee will require until you actually file. Your atty is doing well for you by covering most of these bases upfront, which is actually a good sign.

Good luck!!!

P.S. Check out this form, http://www.uscourts.gov/bkforms/BK_F...m_200_0408.pdf , to see the basic federal requirements for filing a Chapter 7. If you look carefully (it's awfully full of "legalese") you'll see the specific requirements for debt repayment plan, paystubs, etc.

[TX Bluebonnet]

Thanks, FreshLikeADaisy, for all the information and for the checklist of documentation requirements. I've been working on getting all my financial stuff organized so if someone asks me to provide a copy of something I'll be able to get my hands on it right away. I can't believe how many boxes of paperwork, statements, receipts, etc that I've been sorting through, or how unorganized we let ourselves get.

[Cali]

This is what I have to provide 6mths pay stubs, income taxes for the past 4 yrs plus this year, vehicle contracts, vehicle payoff amount, vehicle registration, insurance(auto/homeowners), mortgage payments, creditors, addresses for the past 3 years, IRA/401k, SSN card, any lawsuits or garnishments towards us.

[Flamingo]

This is what I have to provide 6mths pay stubs, income taxes for the past 4 yrs plus this year, vehicle contracts, vehicle payoff amount, vehicle registration, insurance(auto/homeowners), mortgage payments, creditors, addresses for the past 3 years, IRA/401k, SSN card, any lawsuits or garnishments towards us.

Wow, I'm amazed at the 4 years of tax returns...The others are pretty much basic to prove you own the vehicle, house, the amounts due, etc. I remember saying to my husband when we finished our Chapter 13 "novel" of papers that the last paragraph should have stated to wrap up our first born and send her in!

[Cali]

Wow, I'm amazed at the 4 years of tax returns...The others are pretty much basic to prove you own the vehicle, house, the amounts due, etc. I remember saying to my husband when we finished our Chapter 13 "novel" of papers that the last paragraph should have stated to wrap up our first born and send her in!

There is a long list of things, but most don't pertain to us.

What is the standard on tax returns?

[Flamingo]

There is a long list of things, but most don't pertain to us.

What is the standard on tax returns?

Under old law it was one year at least it was for us and other we have spoke with. I know under the new law things really changed and requirements extended to include more. That is the first time I have heard of providing 4 years of returns.

[FreshLikeADaisy]

Well, not exactly. The new federal law still refers only to the most recent year's tax return as being required documentation, but many trustees are now taking it further and requesting prior years. IOW, the law didn't change, the trustees did. But this is the first I have heard of going back *4* years... wow!

In any case, whatever is in the law as a required document has now become the actual minimum; standard trustee practice seems to be taking it farther and farther.

[CindyLou]

be careful with the OT before filing. I will be counted in income and could either put you over the median or push you into a 13 if you have to much disposable income. Temporary or not, it still counts in to the total.

[epiphany]

Well I had my 4th attorney consultation today and decided he was the best of the lot so I put down a small retainer and got my 47 page packet of info and questions to fill out in order to file.

I'm wondering about a couple of documents they're requesting. As stated in the paperwork, they (the attorney's office) requires these based on their "experience" and the "trustee's present requirements"...

(#2) Any debt repayment plan that the credit counseling service helped you prepare.

(#4) Pay stubs for the last six months ... Please continue to provide us with pay stubs up to the date of the first meeting of creditors which wil be approximately 30 days after we file bankruptcy.

(?) Not listed... bank statements.

What would a trustee do with a repayment plan from the credit counseling service? And what if I made mistakes when entering that info during the pre-filing course?

Why ask for more paystubs after the filing date, or even after April 30 if doing a May filing? (naturally that's right when my husband is putting in lots of OT during their busy season)

Any light to be shed on these 2 items being requested and 1 not?

Hi Butter.

I just re-read your original post and thought I would make some additional comments.


I just completed my pre-filing course less than a week ago. I did this online and then had to call. When I called, the counselor asked me to verify the information I had entered. Yikes, I thought, I had really estimated things when I filled them out and was not anticipating that they needed to be 100 percent accurate.

I explained this concern to the counselor and was told not to worry. So I am not going to.

Also, there was no debt repayment plan prepared at my online counseling session (and my certificate states so) because a repayment plan for me is just not possible. You only have to provide that only if there was one.

I also asked the counselor if my counseling information was going to be supplied to the court and was told that no, it was only going to be held on file should the court want it. Their wanting it seems like a long shot to me.

Providing pay stubs is a normal requirement, although the duration which one is asked to supply that can vary from case to case. Not usually a big deal but I imagine that they want to make sure that your income didn't mysteriously "dip" for the just the last six months.

Your attorney will be able to get you through this.

Hope that helps at least a little. I think you're okay.

ep

[TX Bluebonnet]

QUOTE=cindylynnsmith;156136]be careful with the OT before filing. I will be counted in income and could either put you over the median or push you into a 13 if you have to much disposable income. Temporary or not, it still counts in to the total.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that's what I keep telling my husband. The only thing that might keep all that extra OT from hurting my chances of staying with a chapter 7 is that I haven't been employed since the end of December, and by delaying my filing until May, I'll have a month of paychecks (from October) drop off as no longer within the 6 month lookback timeframe.

I'm not so much worried about the OT as far as the means test goes - as long as they stick to using only the past 6 months prior to the filing date! But, since they may look at paystubs up until the 341 meeting, I'm more concerned about it being used as a "true picture" of our household's "current" income (which isn't accurate because the OT is temporary/seasonal for a few months) from which our actual (budgeted) expenses will get subtracted from to calculate disposable income. I'm referring to the income and expense schedules.

To summarize, if they only use the 6 month lookback period then everything's okay. It's the next 4-6 weeks of fat OT paychecks that have me concerned. Now if they take into consideration that those fat paychecks are truly representative of the next 6-12 months, then everything will be okay. It's the not knowing how it's going to play out that has me somewhat worried.

[TX Bluebonnet]

Hi Butter.

I just re-read your original post and thought I would make some additional comments.


I just completed my pre-filing course less than a week ago. I did this online and then had to call. When I called, the counselor asked me to verify the information I had entered. Yikes, I thought, I had really estimated things when I filled them out and was not anticipating that they needed to be 100 percent accurate.

I explained this concern to the counselor and was told not to worry. So I am not going to.

Also, there was no debt repayment plan prepared at my online counseling session (and my certificate states so) because a repayment plan for me is just not possible. You only have to provide that only if there was one.

I also asked the counselor if my counseling information was going to be supplied to the court and was told that no, it was only going to be held on file should the court want it. Their wanting it seems like a long shot to me.

Providing pay stubs is a normal requirement, although the duration which one is asked to supply that can vary from case to case. Not usually a big deal but I imagine that they want to make sure that your income didn't mysteriously "dip" for the just the last six months.

Your attorney will be able to get you through this.

Hope that helps at least a little. I think you're okay.

ep

Took me a moment to figure out who "butter" was, lol. Not enough caffine in a cup of morning tea.

I'm very glad to hear that the pre-counseling didn't have to be 100% accurate, since I'm still fine-tuning my average monthly expenses as I get my all my financial papers organized and get my credit card statements, checking accts, etc updated in Quicken. I'm not sure if you saw one of my other posts, but I took the course a few days ago and didn't end up with a payment plan. I think in my mind I was imaging my budget expenses being questioned and lowered during the counseling course with the end result being I have surplus income which I don't, but that didn't happen thank goodness!

I think I'll be okay, too. Thanks for the reassurances, and for the "butter" greeting. I hadn't realized how grim I was becoming over all of this until that made me laugh at myself for not getting it right away.