Pro Se or Attorney?

[michellem]

Hello everyone! I'm new to this board and I have a few questions. I have been reading through the Chapter 7 thread and while I know you can only provide anecdotal advice, I would greatly appreciate any feedback you provide!

I am far past the point of deciding whether or not to file for bankruptcy. I have approximately 90K in debt. All but 3K of that is medical debt. The oldest of these debts is less than 18 months old. So I have no doubt that the best thing for me to do is file for bankruptcy.

Now I have to decide whether to attempt to file pro se or retain a lawyer. I have already met with an attorney who has kindly offered to take my case for $600, bringing the cost of my case to around $900 with the filing fee.

I have not worked since July of 2007 and I have no income. I do not own a home or car and I believe my assets will fall under my state's exceptions. I live with my parents and they provide my food, personal care items and gas money right now. They do not make payments on any of my bills. My mother is out of work right now so we are solely dependent on my father's income. (Approx. 44k)

When I met with the lawyer he stated that this was clearly a Chapter 7 case. However he also stated that since I have lived with my parents for the past 7 years, the Trustee might try to include my father's income as "Household income".

This is what makes me hesitant to file pro-se. I would really like to file myself because the lawyers fee, while reasonable, is still quite high for my family right now. I have the time and the inclination to handle this myself BUT I worry about having my father's income included under household income. Even with my father's income, we would very likely fall under the median income for a family of three in NC. But I worry about how this might affect my filing.

Do you have any advice?

[Phillymanhere]

Check out legal services options ...

Michellem,

I think you ought to call the local bankruptcy court for recommendations for free or low-cost legal services.
Also check into legal services in your area. You may qualify for a free attorney.

Do some research ... call the local bar association. Based on what you say here, I think there is good chance you'd qualify for free representation. Don't even consider pro se until you exhaustively investigate free services.

[2confused]

I think getting an attorney is great...so long as you trust your attorney. I didn't go with the first attorney i found because it was too expensive, but believe me, you get what you pay for. I have the biggest jerk attorney right now, and i hate seeing hime or asking him anything. i knew he was sleezy almost right away but he was way more affordable. i guarentee he has added undue stress in this whole process. Go through the court for a reccomendation + interview them, believe me, if i had it all to do over agian, i would have went with the first person.

[FreshLikeADaisy]

Michelle, I filed pro se in a very similar situation (temporarily disabled, living with family in the meantime, no income) and I just got my discharge with no problems at all, a couple of weeks ago.

$600 is *very* reasonable for a bk filing, but unless you have other issues (liens on property, complex tax problems/debts, etc.) you can probably do a pro se fairly easily. You will need to study, though: that might be the hardest part.

As for the household income, it's like this: Your father is not married to you, so you do not have to declare his entire income, only that portion that goes to meeting your household needs. I personally estimated $350 a month; I thought that was a generous figure for the food I ate, the water I used, the bed I slept in, and the occasional cash gift. A lot of the information you will find on the net regarding how to declare household income is geared to married people; you want to look for information regarding, for example, how a gay couple woud do it if one partner filed, the other didn't, but they live together. In this scenario, for legal purposes, you're basically a roommate, so don't be confused by what appears to be conflicting info: it's not, it's just spousal situations are handled differently.

Others may be able to give you better, more specific advice, but that's how I did mine. And honestly, figuring out this specific point was harder than just about anything else, so I wish you an easier journey.

While you're figuring these things out, I strongly recommend getting the Nolo Press book (link in my sig) or the Dummies series book on Chapter 7. There is a lot of good information there, and I could not have filed pro se without the Nolo book. Best $30 I ever spent.

Good luck to you!!!

[cirnrab]

I filed Pro Se, and I didn't see the point of an attorney, that was apparent when I went to my 341 meeting. Another person's attorney was fumbling through the whole thing, and the trustee even made a comment that the attorney's just weren't with it this morning. So far my case has gone smoothly, I'm awaiting discharge, last day for objections May 9th. Either way I think you'll be fine, I personally didn't get a Lawyer because I couldn't afford it. Do what you think is right.

[aachudneymiles]

I filed Pro Se, and I didn't see the point of an attorney, that was apparent when I went to my 341 meeting. Another person's attorney was fumbling through the whole thing, and the trustee even made a comment that the attorney's just weren't with it this morning. So far my case has gone smoothly, I'm awaiting discharge, last day for objections May 9th. Either way I think you'll be fine, I personally didn't get a Lawyer because I couldn't afford it. Do what you think is right.

I agree, I filed pro se as well (attorney's cost too much) and no one knows you like you, if you dont understand bk ch 7 I would say to educate your self on the process regardless attorney or not. At my 341 meeting attorney's made some mistakes ( big and small ) seen one person get thier house took and from the look on thier face they had no idea that was coming. I seen attorney's leave out cars and such. I agree with daisy I too studied my butt off day and night, night and day I would eat sleep breath and poop BK 7 lol. I was not going to depend on some lawyer that doesnt given a damn about me to just mess up my bk.
I also used this board when I was confused or had a question the nolo book couldn't answer. Now if you look below you'll see my discharge and closing date.

Also my BK was straight forward no house no money no mean test --- just a bunch of debt under 100k and a couple of broken folks.
.... I also had my filing fees put in to 3 payments because I didnt even have the 299.00 to file but if you don't work and have no income you could try to have the fees totally wavied ( its a form for that ). but if you have an attorney you can't do that ( guess they figure if you can afford a attorney, you can afford the filing fees).
and don't forget get the nolo book ( bk bible )
Good luck

[michellem]

Phillymanhere, thanks for the advice. I have tried looking up some of that information on the net but I haven't had much luck. I guess it wouldn't hurt to call!

2confused, the lawyer I met with is OK. The reason the fee is so cheap is because an acquaintance works in the office and offered to do the paperwork for free. So the only thing the lawyer has to do is review my case and show up to my 341. Hence the low fee.

FreshLikeADaisy, thanks for the information on household income. What you described is how I viewed the situation as well. And I've read the NOLO New Bankruptcy book but haven't yet read the Chapter 7 book. I'm hoping to try and find a copy at my local library before purchasing!

cirnrab and aachudneymiles, I've heard some horror stories too! And that's what makes me lean toward pro se. My case seems pretty simple so why pay a lawyer at all?

I guess I should get busy trying to find out about legal aide. Thanks for the advice!

[hendry70]

Phillymanhere, thanks for the advice. I have tried looking up some of that information on the net but I haven't had much luck. I guess it wouldn't hurt to call!

2confused, the lawyer I met with is OK. The reason the fee is so cheap is because an acquaintance works in the office and offered to do the paperwork for free. So the only thing the lawyer has to do is review my case and show up to my 341. Hence the low fee.

FreshLikeADaisy, thanks for the information on household income. What you described is how I viewed the situation as well. And I've read the NOLO New Bankruptcy book but haven't yet read the Chapter 7 book. I'm hoping to try and find a copy at my local library before purchasing!

cirnrab and aachudneymiles, I've heard some horror stories too! And that's what makes me lean toward pro se. My case seems pretty simple so why pay a lawyer at all?

I guess I should get busy trying to find out about legal aide. Thanks for the advice!

Sure, there are some bad attorneys out there, but you are much, much more likely to screw something up filing pro se rather than with an attorney. Most people will only come here to post if their attorney screws up.

My attorney was fantastic, she returns my e-mails and calls promptly and we sailed right through my 341.

[rilbrianne]

I agree with the above, try for legal assistance and if that falls through, you could probably do it pro se. I did. Same situation as you except that I do pay a little for rent.

The good thing is, you can start filling out the paperwork and if you have any questions, come back here. We'll always be available. If it weren't for the people here answering my every question and for the NOLO book, I wouldn't have gotten through my BK. I came out smiling and proud that I succeeded PRO SE.

[rfassett]

Pro se is not for the "feint of heart". I concur with the others, only YOU know if you have what it takes to do a pro se. My pro se case is pretty well documented on this board. And it has not been a "run of the mill" type case. But I can state pretty assuredly that I was able to accomplish some things that would have either cost me more with an attorney involved; or would not have turned out as well as it did if an attorney was involved. My final date for trustee objections is looming a short three days away. If I get by that date, I will shout from the top of this board, "PRO SE ROCKS"!

Good luck in your decision - and check this board often. It is a true God-send and is full of friends that want to help!

[epiphany]

I admire all that have gone the pro se route and have no doubt that if I had the time and the inclination, I could do it. Close to you, I am 85K in debt and have no home. Do have a car but it's not worth a ton.

I guess it all depends on what is important to you and how much faith you have in yourself. Many here have done it sucessfully. To me, it has been comforting to be able to have an attorney to direct creditors to. To me, it has been great to tell creditors I am filing BK and give them the attorney info so that they leave me alone. The word Bankruptcy is like roach repellent to a creditor/collection agency, except for that it actually works. But that's what's important TO ME.

If you do decide to get an attorney, be sure it is a good one. One that will answer any questions you have any time you have them. Mine has been great and always takes my calls.

I am not filed yet, but between work and everything else, I don't think I could have gone the pro se route. Right now I can barely manage to get the simple things done.

Do a search for Pro Se on this forum and you will find a lot of the information you are seeking. You probably have other questions that you are not even aware of right now. Do your homework before you make an informed decision that is right for you.

Good luck whatever you decide. We'll be here!

ep

[Angie]

OK, I don't mean to hijack this thread, but how do you start going "pro se"? My attorney is charging me lots of money for this, but I didn't think you could do it 'pro se'. What are the requirements? Right now, I'm approximately 70K in debt and it's ALL credit cards.

Another question... what about the house? I see many people stating they don't own a home, so I'm wondering, is my house in jeopardy? I own my home and I have never been late on my mortgage payments. Does my home get affected?

Angie

[FreshLikeADaisy]

Angie, get and read the Nolo Press book (the link is in my sig). It's easy to read and will explain exactly what you need in order to do it yourself, and when going pro se isn't the best idea.

If you own your own home, then you will need to know approximately how much equity you have at this time, and how much your state allows for homestead exemption in a Chapter 7. You pretty much have to understand the asset declaration/exemption process in Ch7 to be able to determine what you can keep, so again... get the book.

[Angie]

Ok, thanks. Man, I love you. LOL!!!

Angie

[rfassett]

Angie, your home will be affected if you have enough unprotected equity to get the trustee's attention. As to requirements to go pro se, I don't believe there are any - at least not that I am aware - for personal chapter 7's. You, in essence, become your own attorney. I concur with the other posters that said "study, study, study". I differ in their opinion slightly. They stated that you need to do that if you go pro se. I would submit that every filer needs to do that. Nobody will care about the outcome of your BK like you will care. I started out studying NOLO's chapter 7 and chapter 13 books, besides everything I could glean from the internet. I moved to the West Publishers code and summary book when the U.S.Trustee started talking about Rule 2004 examinations. That book is about 4 inches thick with a semi soft red cover and very small print. Most BK attornies probably carry that book in their brief case.