I have more money than I should, or do I? :(

[ejny65]

Ok, in January we Went over in food & Grocery. But spent none $0 on apparel. What happens on that? What do I do if there is balance remaining in my checking account at the end of the month, BUT our yearly income is below median?

I am a bit confused, of course I can spend that money, but on what. All I am trying to to is to get my case going as smooth as possible. Some say here to cash it out and get money order .... HOW IS THIS OK? how do people get away and trustee is not asking where is the money. Did I say i am a bit confused? Will someone please shed some light? I appreciate advices.

[FreshLikeADaisy]

Ejny65, I think you're looking at this a little too closely.

First, no one expects you to spend X amount on clothing every month. What the trustee is looking for is the *average* more than the specifics. So if you spent $1200 on clothing this year for your family, you'd put $100 a month, regardless if you spent it this month or last summer. Keep your receipts, if you have them, and be ready to explain it if asked. No biggie, and chances are the trustee won't even blink if it's not an extreme amount.

Secondly, the issue of how much $$$ you have in your acct on the day you file is entirely separate. Basically, you want to have that as low as possible in order to use your exemptions on other things. Also, be aware that if you have $500 in the bank, but $475 in outstanding checks that haven't cleared, to you it's $25 available, but to the trustee it's $500, period. So many people pay bills with money orders just prior to filing in order to avoid having to wait for checks to clear and/or exempting unnecessarily high dollar amounts when the money is already spent anyway.

If you do have extra $$$, then necessities like car repairs or taxes or dental work or shoes for Granny is fine. But I think you're looking at it a little closely, because if you really had all that much $$$ at the end of the month you wouldn't be here in a bk forum, now would you?

I hope this helps. Good luck!!!

[schel]

Ejny65, I think you're looking at this a little too closely.

First, no one expects you to spend X amount on clothing every month. What the trustee is looking for is the *average* more than the specifics. So if you spent $1200 on clothing this year for your family, you'd put $100 a month, regardless if you spent it this month or last summer. Keep your receipts, if you have them, and be ready to explain it if asked. No biggie, and chances are the trustee won't even blink if it's not an extreme amount.

Secondly, the issue of how much $$$ you have in your acct on the day you file is entirely separate. Basically, you want to have that as low as possible in order to use your exemptions on other things. Also, be aware that if you have $500 in the bank, but $475 in outstanding checks that haven't cleared, to you it's $25 available, but to the trustee it's $500, period. So many people pay bills with money orders just prior to filing in order to avoid having to wait for checks to clear and/or exempting unnecessarily high dollar amounts when the money is already spent anyway.

If you do have extra $$$, then necessities like car repairs or taxes or dental work or shoes for Granny is fine. But I think you're looking at it a little closely, because if you really had all that much $$$ at the end of the month you wouldn't be here in a bk forum, now would you?

I hope this helps. Good luck!!!

We havn't filed yet, but you made me feel a little better. My anxiety is through the roof!
Schel

[almost]

I'm right there with you, I have not filed yet and I'm looking at it as close. Shame really, the new BK laws have made a hard thing for you even more difficault. I think that all of us on this forum should wright letters to the congress.

[ejny65]

We have not filed yet. I have to wait couple more months to proof that my income is not what it was before. I have talked to 2 atty. and from forum and them, I am trying to do my best to get ready to file.
Dear fresh, thanks for input, no , I wish I had extra money not to silence my phones and prevent 400 phone calls a day. (
BUT, sometimes at the end of the month, after all budgeting (and all that we try) I have 100, 200 or little bit more left. and thats not anything to be happy about when you get ready to file BK.
Of course we are not spending that much on clothes, but we sure eat more than we are suppose to I guess... fast food, pizza, and general groceries.
So, let me see. It is not important how much money is left AT THE END OF THE MONTH, but it is important HOW MUCH MONEY IS LEFT THE DAY YOU FILE........ Right? did I get it this time...?

[FreshLikeADaisy]

Schel, I'm so glad. I did the exact same thing, if it's any comfort to you. You would already know it if there was really something way out of line. The more you read and learn, the more it will ease your fears, especially hanging around here. There were a few people who posted that got their discharge with much bigger problematic areas than my own, that I was all, "dang, if he can do I sure can!!!" I know that may be horrible in a way (*laugh!*) but if you can get some good out of my own misfortune, all the better, right?

Ejny65, you got it this time! Yes, it is the amount of money you have in the bank on the day you file. But when you do your expenses, be sure you list *everything* so that the true figures come forth: that extra $$$ gets spent on necessities more often than not, I am guessing. And so be sure you don't trim and minimize your listed actual expenses just because somewhere in the back of your head you think the trustee is going to bear down on you and holler, "HOW DARE YOU SPEND $40 ON A BIRTHDAY PRESENT FOR YOUR DAUGHTER!?!?!?!?" He won't. The nagging voice in your head is a great deal louder than his, I imagine. Mine was. In the end, they know you're there because you're broke, so it's not nearly as bad in general as the fears and frustration and bill jockeying and self-accusation that led up to the filing. Yeah, I eat too much too, but the trustee is just not going to look at every pizza you bought, unless you bought 5,000 pizzas because your uncle owns shares in Pizza Hut and you wanted to jack his share price up...

So don't exaggerate, but DON'T hold back. Put it all down. Use your check registers and credit card bills and bank statements. Every vet visit and driver license renewal and trip to the dentist that you can remember, include it in your general categories (pet care, car maintenance, health care). You may end up seeing that after you include all those bills and unusual expenses and one time things and everything, your expenses are actually a good deal higher than your actual income... that's the way it is. That's what you're filing bk to fix, I presume...

Good luck!!!

[ejny65]

Thanks fresh, YES, thats why I need to file, but not yet. I need to show I don't have the same income I had before. waiting is very hard. You are absolutly right, everything i do, I think "is that ok with trustee" ? I assumed I got to be within the national standards and if I am over, I am doomed. I know I should not go over to be qualified, and with the money situation, I cant be over if I want to. I wish I could pay em off today and make em dissapear I always paid double the minimum, and now I am past due, over due, over limit and have to to the chapter 7, and I have to make sure I am doing everything correct not to raise trustee's eyebrows, thats all I think, and thats why I beat myself over 2 extra pizza or groceries. Again, thats for clearing that up. I am drowning in stress.

[FreshLikeADaisy]

Ejny, I have so been there. I had 18 years of perfect (and I do mean perfect) credit before my world fell apart. I would have paid in blood, but alas...

Can I give you a piece of wisdom that helped me a lot when I finally figgered it out?

Basically, you can't even *begin* to figure out how to strategize until you have all your expenses and income and so forth listed out accurately *today*. Part of what is stressing you is that you're trying to work figures that you don't even have yet... that's what I did. The only way to deal with strategizing is to HOLD OFF on it until just before you file, outside of the obvious (like no cruises to Hawaii, no cash advances, no credit card usage except as absolutely necessary, etc.) because you can't put the picture together in any great detail right now. You just can't. And it's not for lack of trying, it's because those facts just aren't available yet. It's like trying to assemble a jigsaw puzzle that is missing pieces and the picture on the box is too fuzzy to see it anyway.

Here's something else. For example, in regard to my schedules I was all concerned and sweating over every little tchotchke that I own, and came damn close to listing every fork and garlic press and pillowcase. Then I looked at a bunch of other cases that convinced me I was DEFINITELY in the realm of extreme overkill, and decided to kick it down a notch and generalize everything into categories, like the Good Book (Nolo Press ) said. Okay, I do it, heave a sigh of relief, it's over, but I was still sweating it. I treated my finances the same way. Sound familiar?

But in the end, my entire bk estate, including vehicle, was maybe $4k. Maybe. Which meant that I was probably about $15,000 *under* the allowable exemptions I had from the state I had just left. So what did I gain? I could have purchased and exempted -- LITERALLY -- those 1,000 hypothetical pizzas I mentioned earlier, and the trustee would (figuratively) have had to eat them. Provided they weren't preferential transfers or asset hiding or fraud, of course. And here I was sweating a magazine charge -- $45 -- that was literally the only "luxury" purchase I'd made in two full years. Two years that saw job loss, disability, foreclosure, personal injury, and unbelievable misery, and I am utterly convinced that a $45 magazine charge is going to kill my Chapter 7.

Oh, what a waste of energy. Thank God I saw it when I did -- my thinking got so ridiculous even I could see it! -- and I was able to recognize it for what it was and mercifully stop it. And did anyone say one word about the subscription? Not one, and I'm past the 341 waiting for discharge as we speak.

Once I saw how it really was by reading and researching and looking at other cases and asking questions here, and how ridiculous I was being about the whole business just because I'd been so damn poor for so long that my mind was working in some strange sort of survival mode, I loosened my death grip somewhat and it was the best thing I ever did.

So I can't slam you for being worried, far from it. I know exactly how it is, and I don't minimize it at all. But if you can, be gentle with yourself, as much as you know how to be. There's something to be said for looking at the big picture, and understanding what has become of you and your reasoning processes after months and years of worrying and trying and scrimping and going without. People who haven't been through this don't understand what a luxury these little things like a pizza or a movie night really are! And all around you, friends and family are talking about their normal lives and shopping ventures and vacation trips and what to buy for Christmas as you sit in this kind of surreal hell of financial meltdown, so it's not like you can just be open about it and talk it over freely, either. Some of us have supportive friends and family, many of us don't. And all of that intense pressure, borne mostly alone and in silence, just warps your mind a bit over time.

So keep in mind that, by contrast, the trustee is exceptionally well fed, exceptionally well compensated for his work, and does not take the same view of, say, a birthday cake the same way you do. You see it as a luxury, you question it, you doubt it, you have it puchased and unpurchased in your head days, maybe even weeks before you even actually buy it. The trustee truly sees it as absolutely inconsequential, if there is nothing elsewhere in your filing to indicate fraud or asset hiding.

If you get a chance, see if you have free PACER access at your federal courthouse where you'll be filing bk, and if there is, spend an afternoon there just looking up all kinds of local cases. See what flew, see what got dismissed. Take note of anything that interests you. Find three or four cases that you think were very well done and got discharged without any problems, note the case #s, and keep them for reference when you get home. You can look them up and study everything about them and begin to see the big picture. You'll be helping your case by learning, and you'll be helping yourself by attacking fear with knowledge.

Please know also that I, and many others here, are rooting for you and truly do wish you all the best. I don't know if this is your thing, but there are people who pray for those of us who post here. You never know, maybe some stranger you never met is saying a little prayer for you even now. Things are fixin' to get a great deal better for you. So just hang in there. Good luck to you!!!

[ejny65]

Thank you Fresh, beside all the great information and experience you shared, you almost brought me to tears with the last part of your reply. I definately need prayers, real ones. I guess I do not need to "PLAN" anything when I struggle to pay rent and utilities. What worries me is not the financial problem that we are now. It is not all the creditors leaving messages or calling all the time. They are all stressful, yes. But what worries me is this: I am self employed. my business was good. very good. sometimes it was slow, and I would use CC for household expenses, until next job and next check, and in the past many times I paid them off too. lately, I could not pay them off, and spent more to pay for things, but I sent more than minimum, my business got slower last summer, I lost a huge account. Now, THE CONCERN: my 07 personal income is higher than median, thats why I need to wait to prove that I dont have the same income any more. It did not become more becasue I made more money, because I cut the advertisment and cut from business expense, now my net profit looks bigger! how am I going to stay calm and not be nervous? what if the dismiss my case because of it, what if they send me home to wait more, till next tax year. i will go nuts. I will have heart attack. I am sure creditors will not just keep calling for 6-12 months without taking a real action.
I have no real estate, I have 2 paid off car and a third car that kids drive to school with. the third car is current in payments. Beside that, biggest luxury in our home are electronics, PS3, Wii, laptops, TVs. (for kids) no other luxury. I am worry because my income suddenly dropped and if trustee looks at that he will say, how come you made more money than year before, and now you want to go BK?? we went vacation, my wife went to school and start a small business(barely paying her own expenses), we bought a car for kids, and this way money was spent last year, NOT KNOWING WE WILL FALL LIKE THIS. now we keep saying "Why did we do that" "why did we buy that"
BK was last thing in my mind, ever. Yes I struggled time to times, but I knew money is coming. Not anymore. It is too messy now, with all the CC calling and I am sure my credit score is a single digit now
So, yes even though I did not plan to be in this situation, I feel the need to plan to get out of it alive. and you have given me lots of good advice which i appreciate. yes, I am looking at this too close and it makes me not see it at all! but i dont know any better.
one more question, do you think trustee will ask us "if business is slow, why dont you just close it and go work somewhere?" Can they say that? I have many reason why, and they are all reasons that a self emolyed would get, but will he understand it? I dont want to close my business.
Please, in my family's behalf, PRAY FOR US. and give us any advice you can. Thank you.

[FreshLikeADaisy]

one more question, do you think trustee will ask us "if business is slow, why dont you just close it and go work somewhere?" Can they say that? I have many reason why, and they are all reasons that a self emolyed would get, but will he understand it? I dont want to close my business.

Ejny, he can technically ask whatever he wants, but this particular question strikes me as being highly unlikely, because it is the equivalent of asking you, "Well, business is slow, so why don't you give up your sole source of income?" He's not thinking the way you do.

See, you ask yourself this *because you see it as an option*. But he doesn't know you that well. What if it wasn't an option? It isn't an option for many who have sunk everything into their business, no matter how small or slow, and it's the only thing they know. Asking someone like that to go and get a job is like asking a fish to grow legs and run track for prize money. So from where you stand, it seems like a legitimate question. From where he stands, it very likely is not. That, and you are SO not the first self-employed-til-the-bitter-end person he has ever met -- far from it.

See how this works? For him, it's all business. And I get the impression, from my own trustee and experiences others have shared about their trustees, that the last thing a trustee wants is some long drawn out sad tale of woe. So they keep their questions pretty cut and dried. We all find our own stories quite fascinating, and rightly so but the trustee goes through what? hundreds? of cases per year.

Not to be gross, but what if the root cause of your bk is this huge gonzo boil on your keister that kept you from sitting behind a desk for a year, cost you your livelihood, and resisted all forms of treatment, the gory details of which you are all too willing to share? No, he doesn't want to hear the details, trust me. If there's any suspicion of fraud, that's different. But a normal bk, especially in this economic climate, no.

He will ask you what brought the bk about, and you'll say, "My business slowed down to a point where we were unable to pull out of the downturn," and that's where it will end. If you stick around on this board, you will see people being advised all the time to keep their responses to any trustee question very short and to the point. This is why. He doesn't want to hear about the (hypothetical) boil on your ass and you don't want him to ask.

I hope this helps. Sorry to be crude, but you get the point. Stop the why and what if thoughts. If all you can do is picture a stop sign in your head every time you think why and what if, you're ahead of the game. No, you won't be rid of the stress entirely until everything is said and done, but you can cut down on it now just by watching what you allow yourself to think. The thoughts will come, but you don't have to entertain them. If it's not something you can deal with now, or change or prevent today, then that's not something to waste your energy on. You already have financial discipline; mental discipline is equally as important. Save your energy for when it counts. And if my unworthy prayers are of any help to you, then please know that you have them. Take care and God bless

[ejny65]

Thanks for all your advice. What do you think about stuff we have at home (electronics) and the third car. we have 3 cars: my truck & DW car both paid off. Kid have a car that we are paying payment and want to keep. are we ok with our luxuries, or will we lose things?
Sorry, i dont mean to keep asking Qs from you fresh, but you explain em so good and clear. So Dont think i am rude, i know I ask way too many questions...I feel like the kid in the car "are we there yet, are we there yet?" but I know people who have passed my days wont blame me THANK YOU

[FreshLikeADaisy]

I don't mind answering, but that last one is beyond me... sorry. What you get to keep has a great deal more to do with your state's exemptions and your personal circumstances than anything else, so there is no general answer. What you CAN do, though, is start looking up the more expensive items you own on Ebay to get an idea of their value, which will tell you (ballpark) how much you have in assets, dollarwise. Good luck!!!