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somewhat harrowing 341 experience...

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    somewhat harrowing 341 experience...

    Okay... so to set the stage, I should remind you that our attorney made several mistakes on our Petition which I did not find out about until a couple nights before, when he was out of town.

    The thing I thought would be a problem more than anything else he screwed up was that he didn't put down that I had had a business for 2-3 years, ending last year. The business never made any money, but still, he should have asked me about it and put it in there. I know I did mention it to him.

    He also checked the wrong box on the 1st page, stating that we had $100k-$1million in debt instead of $50k-$100k.

    He made several other omissions and mistakes on our petition, but those were the ones I thought might be problematic.

    I finally got ahold of him the night before the 341 and he said I should bring these up to the trustee during the meeting! "Gee, thanks a lot! I really have enough on my mind without having to correct your mistakes", I thought.

    Not only that but he was not going to attend because he was sick. I admit he did sound very sick on the phone, coughing and such. So he was sending another guy to be there with us. Great. (I thought, "Let's see, you've screwed up my forms and are not coming to the meeting. What am I paying you for, exactly???")

    So we got there about an hour early and just walked around the area outside.

    We finally went in and sat to listen to other cases and they were running really late so I finally got up and went out to use the bathroom.

    When I did our substitute attorney was out there and he says to me, "You know, the Trustee is upstairs and he's probably going to be down there during your meeting." Why?, I asked. I don't really know, he said, but it may be because you have so much debt (just under $100k). "What will he ask me?", I asked. I don't really know, he said. He may just want to ask how you got so deep into debt... He may not even ask you anything...

    Oh, great. This is my luck. The worst case scenario. The U.S. Trustee is going to attend our meeting and interrogate me...Exactly what I was hoping would NOT happen.

    So we had to wait FOREVER... They were running really late and finally they mentioned that we'd be like the 6th case to come... so we still had to sit there and wait... I don't know about any of you guys out there, but for me the worst part is WAITING when you can't get up and walk around, and you just have to sit there and wait... wait... wait... And now I was waiting with the fear of a U.S. Trustee interrogation hanging over my head... Just my luck...

    So a couple cases before ours, a woman was up there and the U.S. Trustee came up and started asking her questions. He had a lot of questions and the woman's case sounded very messy. She had owned a half-million dollar home but claimed she no longer owned it but her husband did, and the whole thing sounded a bit fishy... So the Trustee interrogated her, asked her about 10 questions and then said he'd need this that and the other documents for proof of this that and the other thing. I couldn't see anything we had that was anywhere near as problematic as all that! So why would he want to get involved with our case?

    A couple more easy cases went by and then it was our turn...
    Finally!

    Everything seemed to go very well. Even when I brought up the mistakes my attorney had made, it seemed like it was no big deal. The regular trustee who conducted all the hearings asked us the usual questions and I told him about the 3 mistakes on our petition.

    He asked me a few questions about my business and I answered him and emphasized that I never made more than $300-500 in any year from it and then closed it due to lack of interest a year ago. He seemed okay with that.

    Then, lo and behold, the U.S. Trustee gets up and comes over and sits down. "Oh, Sh*t!" I said to myself! I had no idea what his interest might be, everything was on the up and up but who knows what his take on it is?? My attorney just had indicated that sometimes they "get involved" when the debt is over $100k but our's was not.

    So I was blown away when he didn't ask me anything, but instead started asking my wife where she worked when she last worked (a year ago) and if she had any income this year, and she answered that she had only gotten unemployment compensation this year, no work income. Then the U.S. Trustee asked her if she was looking for work and my wife said yes.

    And that was IT!

    Whew!

    After the meeting, our substitute attorney told us that the U.S.T. was probably only interested because he had thought we had more than $100k debt but when I corrected it down to UNDER $100k, he was no longer interested. (Again, "Thanks a lot!" to my attorney for checking the wrong box on the form and making the U.S. Trustee think that!)

    We guessed that once the U.S.T. realized in the beginning of my statements that there had been a mistake in the box that stated we owed more than $100k, he really wasn't interested after that, and only asked my wife questions to save face as to why he came up there. It made no sense since my wife never made much money and didn't owe as much as I did, and we were both surprised when he asked her questions and not me.

    So all we have to do (unless something changes, and hopefully it won't) is to file the new paperwork with the corrected info later this week.

    The substitute attorney said he really was pretty sure the Trustee was no longer interested in our case. I can only hope he's right!

    So whew! We made it through.

    I'd have been much less nervous had my attorney NOT warned me that the U.S. Trustee was probably going to interrogate us. It did no good for me to know that, only made me nervous for the next 30-40 minutes!

    Anyway, all's well that ends well, and it at least APPEARS that this step ended well. Since the U.S.T. requested no documents I assume it did end well. Certainly it could have been worse if the U.S. Trutee had gotten out the rubber hose and started beating on me or something... Yeah, I know they don't do that. I am being facetious. But you know what I mean, he didn't ask a lot of difficult or pointed questions or anything...

    So, I feel like we're over one big hurdle...

    So thanks for all the support here, and hopefully I WILL NOT have ANY issues in the next 60 days that I will have to come here to ask questions about!
    <<I am NOT an attorney, my comments are anecdotal only. Contact an attorney for advice>>
    FINALLY DISCHARGED 92 DAYS AFTER THE 341! A NEW START!!!

    #2
    check pacer in a couple of days and then you will know for sure. Perhaps the UST was checking to make sure you hadn't pulled what the lady ahead of you had tried, transferring her ownership to her husband. Maybe he wanted to make sure you hadn't done that with your business???? But gl to you

    Comment


      #3
      I'm SO glad it worked out for you!!!
      Nolo Press book on filing Chapter 7, there are others too. (I have no affiliation with Nolo Press; just a happy customer.) Best wishes to you!

      Comment


        #4
        not to discount your fears, but what could the US trustee really do if you were over 100k? it doesnt sound like you did anything wrong.

        Comment


          #5
          It sounds like it's going to be fine, but i would sure be angry with my attorney! He really put you in a vulnerable spot there.
          Anyway, congratulations, the most terrifying part is over!

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Ugh07 View Post
            not to discount your fears, but what could the US trustee really do if you were over 100k? it doesnt sound like you did anything wrong.
            At a certain point, high debt starts to look like fraud or even undeclared business expenses. I forget what the numbers are, but if your debts exceed a certain high dollar amount, even as an individual debtor w/o a business you are no longer eligible for Chapter 7. So the UST could potentially move to convert the case to another chapter (11 or 13) or even dismiss for fraud, if he were so minded. I think that Pa bringing up the errors on his own (especially the business related ones) made the day, because as he said, the way the attorney filed seemed to raise doubts and that's why the guy was there.
            Nolo Press book on filing Chapter 7, there are others too. (I have no affiliation with Nolo Press; just a happy customer.) Best wishes to you!

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by FreshLikeADaisy View Post
              At a certain point, high debt starts to look like fraud or even undeclared business expenses. I forget what the numbers are, but if your debts exceed a certain high dollar amount, even as an individual debtor w/o a business you are no longer eligible for Chapter 7. So the UST could potentially move to convert the case to another chapter (11 or 13) or even dismiss for fraud, if he were so minded. I think that Pa bringing up the errors on his own (especially the business related ones) made the day, because as he said, the way the attorney filed seemed to raise doubts and that's why the guy was there.
              i believe the limits you speak of are actually for chap 13...something just over 1 million i think

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Ugh07 View Post
                i believe the limits you speak of are actually for chap 13...something just over 1 million i think
                Could be, I thought there were limits for Chapter 7 too. But since I was nowhere near there (about $999,987 short if what you say is true) I never really looked.
                Nolo Press book on filing Chapter 7, there are others too. (I have no affiliation with Nolo Press; just a happy customer.) Best wishes to you!

                Comment


                  #9
                  im in florida too and im guessing that with all the foreclosures and people living off credit cards, there is going to be a ton of over 100k debt filers down here

                  Comment


                    #10
                    You made it past your 341 and survived, Pa!! Congrats!! Glad that the mistakes didn't matter and that the US Trustee didn't make any waves. So far, so good!!
                    I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice nor a statement of the law - only a lawyer can provide those.

                    06/01/06 - Filed Ch 13
                    06/28/06 - 341 Meeting
                    07/18/06 - Confirmation Hearing - not confirmed, 3 objections
                    10/05/06 - Hearing to resolve 2 trustee objections
                    01/24/07 - Judge dismisses mortgage company objection
                    09/27/07 - Confirmed at last!
                    06/10/11 - Trustee confirms all payments made
                    08/10/11 - DISCHARGED !

                    10/02/11 - CASE CLOSED
                    Countdown: 60 months paid, 0 months to go

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by FreshLikeADaisy View Post
                      At a certain point, high debt starts to look like fraud or even undeclared business expenses. I forget what the numbers are, but if your debts exceed a certain high dollar amount, even as an individual debtor w/o a business you are no longer eligible for Chapter 7. So the UST could potentially move to convert the case to another chapter (11 or 13) or even dismiss for fraud, if he were so minded. I think that Pa bringing up the errors on his own (especially the business related ones) made the day, because as he said, the way the attorney filed seemed to raise doubts and that's why the guy was there.
                      I think you are right, Fresh. My attorney told me that in this district, anyway, anything over $100k in personal debt tends to get looked at by the U.S. Trustee (maybe not in every case).

                      That's why I was so happy when I knew our debt was only in the $90k's when I first decided to file, but the penalties and interest rate hikes in the ensuing months almost drove it over $100k after we quit paying them.

                      This is something people filling on debt in the high 80k's may want to be aware of. Those penalties and interest rate hikes up to 36% can raise that $85k debt up to near $100k in 5-6 months!

                      Does it matter? Ultimately I don't think it matters too much (I hope) if you have near or over $100k debt, as long as it is explainable and you didn't lose it mostly on a business or anything. (My business didn't lose hardly any money (nor did it make hardly any! ;-) )

                      BUT, that said, my attorney said the U.S.T. can make your life a pain in the ass if they want to, digging up receipts and statements and stuff, just for having over $100k in consumer debt. It doesn't HAVE to be over $100k of course, they can do it if it's any amount of debt, if they want to. It's just that "$100k" is the figure they use in this district as a rule of thumb.

                      I think my bringing it up to talk about it WAS the right thing to do. I almost didn't but my attorney(s) suggested I do it, and I followed their advice. I do give them credit for that.

                      However, this experience has made me think twice about recommending people in true no-asset cases to do their own filing. I don't think it's that hard, if you use the software, especially, and I know I'd have done a better job than my attorney did; at least I'd have had the facts and figured down there correctly. I imagine it IS a big pain in the butt to figure out how to fill all that stuff out though. But with the help of this group I think I could have done it better than my attorney did.
                      <<I am NOT an attorney, my comments are anecdotal only. Contact an attorney for advice>>
                      FINALLY DISCHARGED 92 DAYS AFTER THE 341! A NEW START!!!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Hmmm, must not use $100K in our area as a guide for the UST to get involved. We had a little over $100K, however almost half was our student loans and the vehicle we discharged. So maybe that was why noone said anything about our debt load.....
                        Filed 9/5/07
                        341 10/4/2007
                        Last Day for Objections 12/3/2007
                        DISCHARGED 12/4/2007

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by PaKettle View Post
                          However, this experience has made me think twice about recommending people in true no-asset cases to do their own filing. I don't think it's that hard, if you use the software, especially, and I know I'd have done a better job than my attorney did; at least I'd have had the facts and figured down there correctly. I imagine it IS a big pain in the butt to figure out how to fill all that stuff out though. But with the help of this group I think I could have done it better than my attorney did.
                          I have to tell you, every day I am getting more grateful that I got pushed into pro se by circumstances. It's not that an attorney couldn't or wouldn't help; it's that I can't afford any mistakes, it's all on the line. Literally. I have nothing left.

                          But this, this I can do. And quite frankly, it's helped a lot of things. I've had to pull my head out of my ass, which has had the overall effect of improving my worldview; I've had to come out of my shell and interact, I've had to quit feeling sorry for myself and gather the courage to take action to better my life. All of this is a good thing. I'm starting to remember who I was before everything fell apart and I did nothing but have crises for three years.

                          It helps that I have the skills, but I think anyone of average intelligence and responsibility level who isn't scared of forms could work their way through their own no-asset Ch7. If a person can get papers to court on schedule, can read and learn, can follow steps and examples in a book, can look at other cases and see what they should look like in their area, no reason not to try. If they try the paperwork and it's just overwhelming, they can give up the pro se idea and have an attorney do it.

                          On the other hand, if there are assets you're trying to save, if there are complexities involved, if you're trying to overcome a borderline means test, if you might have to file 13, you need an attorney. I don't think you can get around it. But no-asset 7, you really have very little to lose.

                          Obviously, I think you're right, Pa. But we'll see how right I am in the end -- I haven't even had my 341 yet. Good luck to you!
                          Nolo Press book on filing Chapter 7, there are others too. (I have no affiliation with Nolo Press; just a happy customer.) Best wishes to you!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            PaKettle-

                            Was your 341 in the same town as the US Trustee's office?

                            We've got $162k looking to discharged. If the UST wants to attend, he would have to drive 90 miles.

                            Plus, it is the DAY AFTER CHRISTMAS! I think that will help us, too.

                            PLEASE NOTE: I am not a lawyer. Bankruptcy may or may not be a best scenario for you. It depends on your situation. You may assume my advice is totally useless. Talk to an experienced bankruptcy attorney (or three) in your jurisdiction for legal advice.
                            Chapter 7 Filed - 11/27/07
                            Discharged - 2/29/08
                            Unsecured Debt Discharged - $162k +/- (small business, personally guaranteed)
                            Finally Closed - 3/1/09

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by yoyoma51 View Post
                              PaKettle-

                              Was your 341 in the same town as the US Trustee's office?

                              We've got $162k looking to discharged. If the UST wants to attend, he would have to drive 90 miles.

                              Plus, it is the DAY AFTER CHRISTMAS! I think that will help us, too.
                              I'm not sure but I'd say, most likely, yes, because I'm in a big city.

                              Is the $162k mostly unsecured credit card debt? Ours was.

                              The bottom line is, the U.S. Trustee "getting involved" mostly just means he or she will take a look at it, check things out, look at your tax forms, and ask a few questions. As Fresh said, if there is no business involved, no money or property transfers of any size, it probably doesn't matter. They're just looking for evidence of fraud, mostly and if there isn't any, then they still have to discharge you, regardless, I believe.

                              Having your 341 the day after Xmas is a great day to have it. That's kind of what I was shooting for, but I got tired of waiting. But also, I felt that having our 60 days fall between the days leading into Xmas and New Years would be good, too.
                              Hopefully that will help me because my new worry is hoping that the credit companies do not file any objections. I know they are rare, but as you can see my luck so far, I have reason to worry. (No, the UST did not cause any problems, but unlike most other cases, he DID take a look at our case, which just shows how unlucky I am in these things; though, ultimately lucky, that he did not - apparently - take a serious interest.)
                              <<I am NOT an attorney, my comments are anecdotal only. Contact an attorney for advice>>
                              FINALLY DISCHARGED 92 DAYS AFTER THE 341! A NEW START!!!

                              Comment

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