Have my 341 next week... and just found out my attorney filed wrong info!

[PaKettle]

I told you I have bad luck with attorneys! He was supposed to have sent me a copy of my filing papers so I could double-check them, but he never did. So I just got around to walking on eggshells through Pacer to download my documents to check them out, today.

My attorney told me he is out of town until the night before my 341 next week, and I just found several things that are wrong. I don't know whether to point out this stuff is wrong or just pretend I didn't notice. None of it would probably be a deal breaker, it's just stuff that for whatever reason the attorney did not fill out correctly:

1) Estimated liabilities - he check marked $100k to $1million. I assume this means how much you owe. It should have said $10k-$100k as our debts (with tons of interest and penalties) come in at just under $100k.

No big deal, maybe, but I'm afraid the judge will see this and mark it for auditing because it's over $100k when it really is not!

2) how long with employer - he put 4 years when really it's 11.

3) Estimated gross YTD income for 2007. He put this at about $10,000 under what it should actually be. If he'd put it correctly we're still well under the median, but he chopped off about $10k. I gave him the figures AND the paystubs from past 6 months so I don't see how he came up with this. My guess is that he was just sloppy and made a typo? In reality my income for this year will only be a couple thousand less than last year, it's just that we had a lot more debt this year. Also, my wife was getting unemployment and that ran out, which really hurt us as well. So: a little less income for us both plus more debt...NOT the $10k less that he has written in that space!

That one really concerns me! Damn!

4) Closed financial accounts over past year. We had one, and I'm sure we told him, but he put "none". It was just a bank account we used for my wife which we changed to another bank back in May or so because they raised our monthly checking account ser charge. We only had about $60 in it when we closed it.

5) Nature, location name of business: they ask for any businesses you ran over the past six years. My attorney put none. But I'm SURE I told him I indeed did have an internet business, although it made nearly zero profit over the several years I had it. I ended it last year after realizing it was never going to get me more than a few extra hundred dollars a year. I think the first 2 years I made close to zero profit or took a loss, and the last year (06) I made like maybe $500 profit, maximum. The 05 and 06tax returns I turned in with the bk documents have that info on them since I took write offs on the business.

However, my attorney put "none" for businesses over the past 6 years.

So, folks, what do I do now??? Do I just pretend I didn't notice these errors or do I make them known and possibly screw myself by delaying things, making myself more likely to get audited, etc..?

I will definitely ask my attorney about these if and when I talk to him. As I said, he's out of town until the night before our 341 and he's SUPPOSED to call me the night before. But judging by what a slip-shod job he did on these documents, I won't be surprised if he does not call me, does not show up at the 341, etc...

If he does not show up to advise me any different, my inclination would be to just pretend I did not know of these discrepancies... If the judge asks me about any of them I'll state the truth, of course.

Advice, please!

[lrprn]

Frankly most filers' forms aren't 100% perfect when they are filed. There's so much variability in how both income and expenses are determined with wiggle room for interpretation by district.

I would do my best to keep this in perspective. Your trustee is looking for obvious discrepancies way off the norm. Most of what you have mentioned wouldn't have made a difference even if the information had been on the forms when they were entered.

If your trustee does have any issues, you'll very likely hear about them at the 341. Then you'll have a chance after the 341 to file mended forms that address the trustee's concerns. It's not the end of the world.

Discuss how to handle these discrepancies you've noted with your lawyer, then follow his advice. Hang in there - do your best to keep your eye on the prize and not get so caught up in details that very likely won't impact the final outcome, ok?

[CindyLou]

I wouldn't worry either. Right or wrong, your attorney probably didn't bother mentioning things that wouldn't matter either way.

For example, with the closed bank account the trustee is looking for money that you may have taken out of the bank upon closure. In this case, the $60 really isn't a big deal. Again, I'm not saying your attorney should not have mentioned it, I'm just trying to find a rationale why he may not have.

From what you have said, I wouldn't worry a bit. Just talk to him about it when he returns.

[yoyoma51]

Under the new and 'improved' bankruptcy laws, I believe your attorney can be held responsible for errors or omissions on your information (if he/she in fact knew that the information was incorrect).

I don't think most lawyers would take a chance at filling in something they were not sure about. They want to stay in business.

PLEASE NOTE: I am not a lawyer. Bankruptcy may or may not be a best scenario for you, it depends on your situation. You may assume my advice is useless (and it probably is). Talk to an experienced bankruptcy attorney in your jurisdiction for legal advice.

[FreshLikeADaisy]

I think the worst that could happen is the trustee asks at the 341, and the 341 gets continued to another date because he wants amended schedules and supporting docs in light of the new information.

But I have to tell you... that would scare the hell out of me too. One of the required questions in the 341 (not that they always ask) is "Is everything in the filing 100% true and correct?" Along with, "Have you read and are you familiar with everything that is contained in your filing?" (The exact wording is different, I'm quoting from memory, but that's close.) I honestly don't know how I'd answer that in your shoes.

I am pro se, so it's different for me (I can go to the trustee directly if I have to) but if I find some glaring error in my filing, I'm going to go ahead and correct it, even if it means that I have to ask the trustee for a postponement, or attend and get a continuance. I think what I would probably do for myself is write the trustee a letter explaining the circumstances and ask how he'd like to proceed, and serve the letter instead of just mailing it. I would do this because I will do everything in my power to avoid the appearance of dishonesty; I just don't have the resources to deal with it if the trustee thought I was hiding or not being straightforward.

The Nolo Press book I have says that part of the reason the trustees ask that question about everything being 100% true and correct is because they observe you as you answer to see if there is any hesitation at all, and if there is any doubt the trustee will start asking you everything they can until they're satisfied that they've gotten to the truth. Me, I am a horrible liar and I would be busted immediately. I so cannot afford that!

Attorneys HATE it when you go around them and contact the trustee yourself; that's not what I am suggesting you do unless you absolutely have to. But if you don't think you can swear to "100% accuracy" with a straight face in front of the trustee, maybe you ought not even try. I think the trustee would know very quickly you weren't trying to hide anything and that they were paperwork errors, but why make it harder?

I'm sorry, I know this is kind of a wrench in the works compared to the other responses you've gotten, but if your gut is telling you that you need to have all this corrected, then definitely do what you can. It's not like this is just one error: there's a whole bunch of them, and as you noted, they skew some pretty significant numbers in your filing. Does your attorney have a partner, or any other emergency contact arrangements? Can you write him a detailed letter stating the problems with the filing and making it clear that you want a continuance at the 341? If necessary, he could call the trustee's office himself from Acapulco and explain that there are errors in the paperwork and let the trustee decide how to proceed, if he had to.

In the end, the attorney works for YOU. This is YOUR life and YOUR finances on the line. It's no good him trying to force you into swearing the accuracy of things that you just can't put your name and honor to in good conscience. Again, I apologize -- several people much wiser than I who have already been through it are saying don't worry -- but I couldn't do what is being asked of you, and I don't think you are wrong to worry or to attempt taking whatever corrective action you can so that you are not in the position of swearing falsely to information you know to be incorrect.

[FreshLikeADaisy]

Under the new and 'improved' bankruptcy laws, I believe your attorney can be held responsible for errors or omissions on your information (if he/she in fact knew that the information was incorrect).

I don't think most lawyers would take a chance at filling in something they were not sure about. They want to stay in business.

That may be true about penalties for attorneys, but what about the filer who signed the Form 6 Declaration Under Penalty of Perjury knowing there to be errors in the filing?

As part of filing pro se, I went down to the courthouse and looked at case after case after case on PACER (it's free there). It may be different where you are, but where I am I saw *many* cases dismissed for reasons the attorneys could have corrected up front. Not to get into that -- that's a whole 'nother post -- but for instance, why force a debtor into Chapter 13 when it's clear their finances won't even allow them to make the first payment? Why allow a case to be dismissed for lack of a tax return when you can require it upfront (as many do)? Why let your Chapter 13s get dismissed in droves when you could convert at least some of them to 7s?

There was a HUGE difference between the filings (and outcomes) of the better attorneys vs. the bankruptcy mills: the better attorneys had next to no dismissals. The bankruptcy mill attorneys had scads of dismissals. Yes, they want to stay in business -- we all do -- but not everybody thinks that doing a good job is a necessary prerequisite to that. I'm sorry to challenge you, I just don't think that's a safe assumption to make.

[yoyoma51]

Good points, Fresh.

Much of the time, people do not put enough emphasis on finding a 'good' bankruptcy attorney.

Too many times people don't or go with the cheapest.

People should ask themselves this simple question when interviewing bankruptcy attorneys:

"If you think this attorney would make a good car mechanic (honest, not charge an arm-and-a-leg ,etc.), you're probably talking to the wrong attorney."

In our case, we wanted one who was experienced, knew how to work the system for every possible (but legal) break/loophole and didn't waste our time and money.

[sandhall]

my attorney messed up some of figures the day of our 341 our attorney had new papers with him and told them he needed to amend some forms she ask for them before she ask us or has us raise our hand to say everything was true and correct. then told attorney to have them filed before end of day. she went by the forms he gave at meeting.

[PaKettle]

I wouldn't worry either. Right or wrong, your attorney probably didn't bother mentioning things that wouldn't matter either way.

For example, with the closed bank account the trustee is looking for money that you may have taken out of the bank upon closure. In this case, the $60 really isn't a big deal. Again, I'm not saying your attorney should not have mentioned it, I'm just trying to find a rationale why he may not have.

From what you have said, I wouldn't worry a bit. Just talk to him about it when he returns.

Thanks, folks. I feel much better.

My feeling after sleeping on it last night (yes, I actually slept, but with a valium!), was that I should just let it fly. Chances are they won't notice any problems with it and since they aren't major problems, I should just let it go and figure no one will notice. Like you said, they really "wouldn't matter either way", so why rock the boat?

As to the issue of hiring a good attorney, some of you may remember that I went through hell trying to find what I thought was a good one. I interviewed about 6, I decided to hire one and then backed out for his saying he would not attend the 341 with us. Then I interviewed several more and came up with this one based on a recommendation.

I'm not saying he isn't good - all's well that ENDS WELL!

So all I can do at this point is hope that all DOES end well!

Thanks again to all for your considered responses!

[PaKettle]

That may be true about penalties for attorneys, but what about the filer who signed the Form 6 Declaration Under Penalty of Perjury knowing there to be errors in the filing?

[snip]

I wonder how many filers who use an attorney actually EXAMINE the forms as we did before saying "I affirm everything is accurate"?
My guess is that most attorneys - like our's is apparently planning to do - just briefly show you the forms right before the meeting and tell you to say that you have examined them - likek when you buy any big ticket item and they give you a long contract to read and you just sign it.

My guess is most people do not really examine it for errors other than just the name and address and social security #.

And if something goes wrong and it is found later that the form IS wrong, and nothing was deliberately fudged by the filer, my guess is there is no punishment involved...?

I hope that is the case, anyway...

Now, my question is, should I even tell my attorney about this stuff the night before when he calls me? Or should I just pretend I didn't notice any of it? My thinking here is, he might want to delay the 341, or amend the forms or something which might cause the Trustee to want to look at it closer. I'd rather things just go through as planned, no bumps in the road...

[yoyoma51]

I think you'll be OK as-is. I doubt anything you've mentioned rises to the level of intentionally trying to mislead the trustee or court about your situation.


PLEASE NOTE: I am not a lawyer. Bankruptcy may or may not be a best scenario for you. It depends on your situation. You may assume my advice is useless. Talk to an experienced bankruptcy attorney (or three) in your jurisdiction for legal advice.

[emandmeagsmom]

We have a great attorney highly recommended but his office forgot to add 3 creditors to our matrix. At our 341 when we showed him the bill we kept getting because they didn't know, he said if was their mistake they were going to pay the fee but if was our fault, we would have to pay. Needless to say, when we got back to his office to sign on those papers, he was reaming out his employees for not being thorough on the matrix.
What Im getting at, is even attorneys and their offices make mistakes and it could just be mistakes.

[CindyLou]

Pakettle, I do recommend mentioning the things you noticed to your attorney and making sure he knows the questions exist.....then go from there. I think he will reassure and and move on, but you should definitely point it out. Maybe send him an email so it can be waiting when he returns.....along with a phone message that you have sent him an email.

Relax, everything is going to fine. This time next week you will be sighing a huge sigh of relieft that your 341 is over and done.

You have made great progress over the last few months. I can tell you are worrying less...but we are so much alike.....worry warts to the end!!

Good night.

[PaKettle]

Pakettle, I do recommend mentioning the things you noticed to your attorney and making sure he knows the questions exist.....then go from there. I think he will reassure and and move on, but you should definitely point it out. Maybe send him an email so it can be waiting when he returns.....along with a phone message that you have sent him an email.

Relax, everything is going to fine. This time next week you will be sighing a huge sigh of relieft that your 341 is over and done.

You have made great progress over the last few months. I can tell you are worrying less...but we are so much alike.....worry warts to the end!!

Good night.

Thanks, Cindy!
In my defense I was MUCH MORE relaxed until I found these mistakes on my forms! Before that I was not all that nervous (I'm actually MORE nervous about the 60 day club when creditors are more likely to call my attorney with objections...)
Anyway, thanks for your replies!
I will let my attorney know about the mistakes. I just HOPE he does not insist on re-filing the papers or anything like that. I really would rather just let it ride, as some here have suggested. But he's a very conservative guy, I have found, so I'm afraid he'll freak out and want to re-submit the forms or something...

[sandhall]

how did 341 go?