Anyone notice if things are getting stricter?

[B12]

Just read a post here by someone who had an objection by Chase.

My main concern was a gift to an insider of 30,000 about 14 months ago when I was solvent.

First lawyer said "might not" be a problem as some of you stated in my original thread, since it is over a year.

There was another poster who was in same predicament, can't remember the name.

Anyway, met with second lawyer and he said, "will get back to you on that."

Well, got an email from him saying I should definintely wait a year more before filing because it will be a two year look back instead of one year and that the trustee will go after the person I gifted.

Anyone notice if things are getting rougher?

Getting a third opinion, someone here recommeded a lawyer I am going to meet.

How on earth am I going to wait another year???
Seems like this second attorney wanted to check out something before he answered me. Maybe other cases?

[B12]

I have been researching the look back period and am getting info stating anywhere from 1-4 years.

One site said it was one year and then adjusted to 2 years after 4-06.

Anyone know anything definite about this?

[ssdsco]

Just read a post here by someone who had an objection by Chase.

My main concern was a gift to an insider of 30,000 about 14 months ago when I was solvent.

First lawyer said "might not" be a problem as some of you stated in my original thread, since it is over a year.

There was another poster who was in same predicament, can't remember the name.

Anyway, met with second lawyer and he said, "will get back to you on that."

Well, got an email from him saying I should definintely wait a year more before filing because it will be a two year look back instead of one year and that the trustee will go after the person I gifted.

Anyone notice if things are getting rougher?

Getting a third opinion, someone here recommeded a lawyer I am going to meet.

How on earth am I going to wait another year???
Seems like this second attorney wanted to check out something before he answered me. Maybe other cases?

I have the gift problem as well but I was insolvent at the time. You can't include 401k, pension value, or anything that will be exempt in BK in the solvency test so that put me upside down. New York state law may be coming into play here but I think the trustee can look back to when I was solvent for gifts. Ouch !

My attorney did say the trustee would probably settle for less if I agreed to pay rather than going after gift recipients that can’t pay.

I thought my attorney said if you're solvent at the time then gifts are not a problem.

What actually happens when they go after a gift recipient and they don‘t have the gift or equivalent cash ?

[B12]

Don't know what happens. But, trying to find out.

[Minnymouth]

From what I have heard about cases like this, often the Trustee will go back 2-3 years to see if you have transferred land, autos, money gifts to family, etc.

IF YOU HAVE, then the Trustee will go after the recipient for what you gave them. Either land, money, car, or the value of it. The Trustee will sue and make them pay....... wouldn't make any difference whether they still have the money, auto, land or not.....

Same principle as if you overpaid a creditor $5,000 and paid another $50.00............ the trustee will go after the creditor to cough up the $5,000.

This can create a bad situtation in a bankruptcy...........

[nc73]

From what I have heard about cases like this, often the Trustee will go back 2-3 years to see if you have transferred land, autos, money gifts to family, etc.

IF YOU HAVE, then the Trustee will go after the recipient for what you gave them. Either land, money, car, or the value of it. The Trustee will sue and make them pay....... wouldn't make any difference whether they still have the money, auto, land or not.....

Same principle as if you overpaid a creditor $5,000 and paid another $50.00............ the trustee will go after the creditor to cough up the $5,000.

This can create a bad situtation in a bankruptcy...........

What if the recipient wasn't in the US? Although the vehicle was sold at market value to a non family member.

[Minnymouth]

nc73,
Your saying the auto went overseas??? And family member does not live in the states???

I would think that it would all fall back on the filer and the Trustee demand the filer pay it in full back to the bankruptcy estate thru a payment plan....

Not many options available for this type of transaction....

And believe me the Trustee will GET HIS MONEY from someone..... either receiver or seller....

[ssdsco]

From what I have heard about cases like this, often the Trustee will go back 2-3 years to see if you have transferred land, autos, money gifts to family, etc.

IF YOU HAVE, then the Trustee will go after the recipient for what you gave them. Either land, money, car, or the value of it. The Trustee will sue and make them pay....... wouldn't make any difference whether they still have the money, auto, land or not.....

Same principle as if you overpaid a creditor $5,000 and paid another $50.00............ the trustee will go after the creditor to cough up the $5,000.

This can create a bad situtation in a bankruptcy...........

I'm getting prepared for the "bad Situation" with gifts.

I'm locked in on the gifts for the 1 year look back. About $7k total to 4 family members over 14 transactions for living expenses, all cash. I know the trustee will come after that.

If the trustee wants to go back 2-3 years I would have to request the bank statements from my bank which I already know takes 3-4 weeks and costs money. Would this issue delay the 60 days from 341 to discharge ? I'm prepared to pay whatever I have to pay. I'm discharging $200k in debt plus a seriously upside down house so still a pretty good deal even I have to pay some money from my 401k. I just hope it doesn't delay the overall timeline to much.

Wish they didn’t have to call this “fraud“. I cringe every time my attorney says the word.

[Minnymouth]

Yes, I do believe that the Trustee can hold up your discharge temporarily with the help of the US Trustee. They will probably make a motion with the Court. And then again they may not, just not close your case till the "abuse" issue is settled.

They can also dismiss your case for abuse, but probably won't if they think they have a fraud case and can collect money from you.... for the creditors.....

This will be a touch and go situation...... I don't envy you any at all...

Keep us posted.

[B12]

SS, this lawyer whom I trust the most is saying wait 2 years!

I know what you are saying about fraud. You help or gift a family member when you have money and they call it fraud or abuse!

My transfer was completely honest. Who knew it would come back to bite.

I also, was wondering like you, if you can just pay it yourself on time to the creditors.

[Ugh07]

Im a little confused. How would the trustee know you gave a gift a over a year ago? Dont they look at the last 6 months bank statements?

[lrprn]

Im a little confused. How would the trustee know you gave a gift a over a year ago? Dont they look at the last 6 months bank statements?

Trustees can request and look back through accounts several years if filing in bad faith or fraud is suspected.

[B12]

It is not a matter of filing in bad faith or fraud, although the trustee can suspect fraud from your transactions.

To answer your question, you are asked if any property transfers have taken place in the past 3 years or if any large payments were made to one person or another. In my situation I volunteered the info about the gift in case it came up.

I figured if they were going to check out my property transfers in the past few years, they were going to ask for bank statements for those years and the gift is there in bold print.

That is how it comes up. Although it is quite innocent, it can be looked upon as fraud in paying one person over another, or trying to transfer money out of your name in the way of a gift.

[jp2861]

I don't have time to look it up but I thought the question was asking within 1 year, not 3.

From Statement of Financial Affairs form:

7. Gifts
List all gifts or charitable contributions made within one year immediately preceding the commencement of this case except ordinary and usual gifts to family members aggregating less than $200 in value per individual family member and charitable contributions aggregating less than $100 per recipient. (Married debtors filing under chapter 12 or chapter 13 must include gifts or contributions by either or both spouses whether or not a joint petition is filed, unless the spouses are separated and a joint petition is not filed.)

Why fess up information outside of what the question is asking? I sure wouldn't. It says 1 year and you can honestly answer, within 1 year.

[CATCHMEIFYOUCAN]

Anyone notice if things are getting stricter?

Since I've been on this forum from the beginning to ALMOST the end of my BK (when I say ALMOST, I'm waiting to see the word CLOSED, just not discharged). I have noticed alot of creditors filing objections. Am I wrong ? Or am I seeing things ! ? ? ?

Catchmeifyoucan