Conversion from 7 to 13?

[ohwell]

fresh, our atty has us with a negative schedule, every case is different. What a paralegal says vs. bk attorneys, I would not want to generalize what US trustees do - it depends on each case and the district. To generalize a specific advisement and tell that is how it always should be done is risky advice.

Its just my opinion, but many others here have negative schedules and come out alright, pro se and using counsel.

[freshstart06]

True is an opinion but it is good not to be too negative, this is a red flag to trustees, I dont care if your lawyer allowed a negative on your file or not, it isn't worth the risk. Now if you are like negative $19 that is different but negative $100 plus is asking the trustees and US trustee to look deeper into your case to find out why you are negative.

The goal is to not draw too much attention to your file if you can help it.

[ohwell]

fresh I am curious, what happens if there is attention drawn to a negative schedule, is the result a conversion to 13 or dismissal? Is that the consequence? Just wanting to clarify what happens. If you reaffirm secured debt, they refuse that and then make that disposable income and roll you into a 13?
Does that show up on pacer?

Our atty has been in the business for 25 years, and have heard good things, so am hoping his advice is money well spent. We haven't heard boo from the the UST, and we are high income filers.

Just trying to summarize the scenarios with the consequence of a negative schedule.

[freshstart06]

there has been a few members on this board that had to convert to 13 because they would not give up their car or something else that put them into the negative. One member I can think of is coma, you may want to contact this member for details. I am really surprised that a Lawyer of 25 years would allow you to go into negative unless he could not avoid it, he should have advised you that the UStrustee or BK judge may not allow you to keep the secure debt that is putting you into negative. Please take the time to do a search on this board in regards to being in the negative.

yes, what could happen if you are very negative is that you would have to either give up the secure debt that is causing the negative, get dismissed, or convert. Trust me, read up on this on this board. However, as you stated each case is unique and different and you may not have no problems at all. But the safe thing to do is make your numbers work so your schedules will not be negative, zero disposable is better then negative but a few dollars negative is okay too. You know what I mean.

To be honest, if you are negative on schedules I an J that does not include unsecured debt then BK is not going to solve your problems, this means you have no room what so ever for error, increasing your income will help but while you are waiting for discharge you will still suffer, and may be back in a hole before your BK closes... this is something to consider.

[ohwell]

We have a car payment that pushes us negative, its our only vehicle, our other car got repossessed. We are upside down in the car we are making payments on. We don't have significant disposable income if they don't allow the reaffirmation.

I inquired to my atty about this whole negative j schedule, and he said he always has negative schedules for his clients and doesn't allow any risk of disposable income showing. And he emphasized he NEVER allows it(I was challenging him quite a bit because of what I read here, because I was surprised myself). I also challenged him on the whole reaffirmation thing as well for the car. He said worse case scenario they don't allow the reaffirmation, but if we submit a statement from a relative/friend that they would assist in payments if there was a problem making them that is sufficient for the court.

Our lifestyle is tight no doubt, but we aren't in the hole, for our schedule J our food budget is higher than what we would spend, but these are the figures our atty said he uses as standard for his clients. We are in a very high income area(Los Angeles), so who knows what the UST looks at in our district, starting to think they look the other way with some of these cases, given our hardship and our declaration statement of circumstances submitted with our petition, no one has objected thus far. Who knows.... I hate there are so many gray areas on what is allowed.
So if our case gets converted or dismissed, then it will be proof that the opinion on the negative schedules is validated as true. If not, then maybe we are just one of the lucky ones.. Because as of right now, we are not following the rules according to the opinions here.

I will give up this car in a heartbeat if that happens re: the reaffirmation if need be. But right now no news is good news lets hope.

[freshstart06]

LOL, we were high income as well and we went pro se, some thought we could not do it and we are now passed the 60 day period.

YOu sound like me, I would give up my car in a second if it caused my case to get discharged. I will admit your attorney practice is different but if it works it works, I wish you luck, I just would not reaffirm and just pay on time.

[aachudneymiles]

every trustee is diff. how many cases he has and so forth.

[SinkingFast]

Look in your History/Documents. See if you have a "Motion to Dismiss" there. It'll be a .pdf file. You should be able to read to see what the UST's Office is objecting to.

If it's a Motion to Dismiss, you'll be getting a mailing about the Order. You'll also get a Hearing. You'll have a time frame,....... Probably 2-3 weeks,....... To get ready. When you go to the Hearing, you can plead your case. Provide amended Schedules if appropriate.

Depending on the outcome of the Hearing, either your Ch 7 will go thru, or the Court will hold that your case to be Dismissed. Even tho you couldn't continue with your Ch 7, with your permission, the Court will allow you to Convert to Ch 13.

Until you know what the UST's Office is peeved about, you're really flying blind.

[SinkingFast]

there has been a few members on this board that had to convert to 13 because they would not give up their car or something else that put them into the negative. One member I can think of is coma, you may want to contact this member for details.

Coma filed Ch 13 to save their car. They were in arrears at the time of filing. Otherwise, they could have filed a Ch 7. They were below the Median.

They were sent to a new Duty Station where they eventually gave back the car they filed Ch 13 to save. Since then, Coma has Converted to Ch 7.

[freshstart06]

That is what I meant, Ohwell, car payments is pushing them into the negative similiar to Coma situation (remember Coma was not behind, his car note was very high and the trustee had a problem with it because it put them in the negative) and in order to keep it they had to file chpt 13 even though they had no disposable income. The trustee really just don't like to see negative, You guys told me that when I first became a member and I was negative and my paralegal told me as well. Schedule I am J is you budget without the unsecured debt and if you are still negative without unsecured debt then the trustee will look further into your file, as stated before the goal is to make your file make sense so they have no reason to look deeper unless you are one of the luckly number 250 then you have no choice.

[freshstart06]

but as we all know each case is unique and different and every trustee is not the same, you never know what is going to happen. You have have two exact same situation with two different outcomes.

[lrprn]

Can't afford a lawyer at this point, so I'm attempting to find all the information I can on my own. Thanks everyone.

AZ, fighting the US trustee on your own is risky.

Since you aren't paying your non-secured creditors now, can you use that money to help pay for a lawyer?

At the very least, set up appointments for FREE initial consultations with 3-4 bankruptcy lawyers in your area. See what they think about your situation. Also ask if a payment plan might be possible - some lawyers will do that. Also check out Legal Aid in your area - charges are sliding depending on your situations. Any legal help will be better than trying to fight this on your own.

[SinkingFast]

Here's a link to Coma's MTD thread:

http://www.bkforum.com/showthread.php?t=5105

The UST had several issues with their filing. And it could be they got picked on because they filed Pro Se. Which could be happening in your case.

They got an attny to step in and help out. As Lrprn suggested, you might want to at least Consult with a few. Possibly even consider retaining an attny as well.

The UST has power that we as individuals don't. They know the Code inside and out. Decisions and Opinions that have been rendered to support their position are on the tip of their tongues. And they will quote, "In re blah, blah, blah" like it's second nature.

[AZgirlie]

No Motions to Dismiss or to Convert to Ch 13 either. Just the Statement that says I can file special circumstances,no reasons given. Which, by the way, is so very helpful since I am going this on my own...

Can I contact the Trustee in my case? Will they answer my questions or just give me the same "I can't give you advice, you need to contact a lawyer for that" b.s.?

[SinkingFast]

You can try asking. The Trustee's office may answer some things and tell you to seek legal counsel on other things.

Be sure to phrase your questions such that you're asking for info and not sounding like you're asking for advice. Advice type questions probably won't get answered.

I would think you'd be entitled to know the basis of the Trustee's query. What particular points the Trustee is looking to resolve.