Does this sound right?

[PaKettle]

I asked my attorney if it would be wise for me to increase my withholdings on my w4 so that the Trustee wouldn't take my tax return in 08 (which was over $3500 in both 06 and 07). He said, "You can do whatever your tax advisor says but the Trustee won't take your tax return." I had heard on here that it was fairly common that they do take your tax return if it is very big. Does it depend on the district or something?

Likewise, my attorney also said he does not need my bank statements at all, nor a list of creditors. I said, "So what do you need?" and he said, "Just the 6 mo. of pay stubs, everything else I can get from your credit reports." I said, "Wow. Great."

Then, he asked me almost nothing about expenses, just the basics of internet and cable and rent and car payment etc.. I thought he would want to discuss clothing and all that other stuff that is difficult to pin down.

He also did not ask me about my debts, only if I had any big ones in the last 6 months and how much our total was. He said the big $22k loan I took out in 2004 was no problem and he didn't even ask what I did with the money.

I like the idea that all this is making things easy. But is it possible he is just not being thorough or something?

I want to trust him, and leave it all to him, but as I've said before I do have trust issues with attorneys after having had my accident case mis-handled by the attorney I trusted.

So I'm just asking. Do these practices sound right?

Has anyone else had an attorney like this,that basically doesn't ask any questions about anything? (He was recommended to me by someone who used him for their Ch. 7 - someone I found on the net, not someone I know - and he says he's been doing bankruptcies for years and does a lot of them.)

This is just me being overly nervous no doubt.... But I figure I'd rather ask questions and check on things than find out later from someone, "Well that should have set off alarms!"

[325Falcon]

Run!! Go interview another attorney!!

[lrprn]

I had heard on here that it was fairly common that they do take your tax return if it is very big. Does it depend on the district or something?

Yes, whether tax returns are taken or not depends not only on local court practices but on individual trustee customs as well. There's nothing in the bk law that addresses how to handle tax refunds, so each trustee tends to go whatever direction he/she feels is appropriate.

So I'm just asking. Do these practices sound right?

Pa, if your income is well under the median and you are filing Ch 7, then knowing your expenses down to the dime won't matter very much because you aren't heading into the Means Test very far.

I would create my own list of creditors for the lawyer and not just trust my credit reports to list every single debt I had. Any creditor that doesn't report to the credit bureaus won't be included. It may be that your district is one that will discharge any debt that isn't listed if it would have been discharged anyway and that's why he isn't overly concerned about this. Ask your lawyer to see if that's the case here.

It's very understandable that you are skittish given your earlier bad lawyer experience. However, you've interviewed a good number of bk lawyers. You felt good about this lawyer. You are hiring this person to represent you.

If you aren't sure about why he's making some of these decisions, ask for the reasons. Most bk lawyers aren't used to their clients understanding much about the bk law. It's ok to show that you have more knowledge about how things work than his other clients do and question what you think may be a problem.

[PaKettle]

Thanks for your opinion, lrpn. That makes me feel better.
325Falcon's comment had me starting to worry even more!

What you said about the districts having different policies on tax returns makes what he said make sense and I wondered if that might be the reason.

I also figured that our being well under the median might also be why he didn't care a lot about our expenses and why he only asked about the phone and the cable and internet.

As for making a list of creditors, I will do so, just for good measure. But I have checked a recent credit report and they all are on there, so that shouldn't be a problem.

When we meet with him to sign the contract next week, I will ask any questions I have about these things. I'm particularly going to remind him of my mixed up social security # problem, but hopefully it is not going to be a problem because I've called all my creditors and corrected it with them, at least they have told me so on the phone, that they've corrected it. (Wish I had it in writing!) This is the ONE thing that I am most concerned about, but he seems to think it's no big deal.

Again, thanks for letting me know that some of these things vary by district, that makes me feel better, assuming that he is probably just very familiar with this district's policies and customs.

I know... I've GOT to calm down and stop worrying about all this stuff! Believe me, I'd worry a lot less if it wasn't for that damned social security mix up! [For anyone who is wondering what I'm talking about, the last 2 numbers of my social security # are mixed up on my credit reports and I used that number on all my accounts before I found out it was wrong, then I kept using it because I didn't want to "rock the boat". I have a thread on it called My Mixed Up Social Security Number - here:

http://www.bkforum.com/showthread.php?t=15568

Several attorneys have told me "it shouldn't be a problem, but it COULD be..." (depends on the Trustee we get)

Yes, whether tax returns are taken or not depends not only on local court practices but on individual trustee customs as well. There's nothing in the bk law that addresses how to handle tax refunds, so each trustee tends to go whatever direction he/she feels is appropriate.

Pa, if your income is well under the median and you are filing Ch 7, then knowing your expenses down to the dime won't matter very much because you aren't heading into the Means Test very far.

I would create my own list of creditors for the lawyer and not just trust my credit reports to list every single debt I had. Any creditor that doesn't report to the credit bureaus won't be included. It may be that your district is one that will discharge any debt that isn't listed if it would have been discharged anyway and that's why he isn't overly concerned about this. Ask your lawyer to see if that's the case here.

It's very understandable that you are skittish given your earlier bad lawyer experience. However, you've interviewed a good number of bk lawyers. You felt good about this lawyer. You are hiring this person to represent you.

If you aren't sure about why he's making some of these decisions, ask for the reasons. Most bk lawyers aren't used to their clients understanding much about the bk law. It's ok to show that you have more knowledge about how things work than his other clients do and question what you think may be a problem.

[brokeinmichigan]

Well, our attorney didn't ask us too much, either. We brought in our paystubs, tax returns and our credit reports. He was able to get pretty much all he needed from our paperwork. We were actually OVER the median by several thousand dollars, and at risk for being changed to a CH13, but somehow, he made it all work. He was recommended to us by another atty we consulted with, who only does "easy", no-brainer CH7 cases that are a sure win. So, short-answer-long....he may very well be able to get what he needs from your paperwork, since lots of the numbers they plug in to the formulas really don't change from case-to-case. They use what's allowed, and go from there...

Good luck!

[PaKettle]

Well, our attorney didn't ask us too much, either. We brought in our paystubs, tax returns and our credit reports. He was able to get pretty much all he needed from our paperwork. We were actually OVER the median by several thousand dollars, and at risk for being changed to a CH13, but somehow, he made it all work. He was recommended to us by another atty we consulted with, who only does "easy", no-brainer CH7 cases that are a sure win. So, short-answer-long....he may very well be able to get what he needs from your paperwork, since lots of the numbers they plug in to the formulas really don't change from case-to-case. They use what's allowed, and go from there...

Good luck!

Thanks much for the feedback. Now I am feeling better, that he just didn't need the further info, he's getting all he needs and "plugging in the rest".

[whatamess]

PAKettle, this is how my attorney was too. They asked for my two years tax returns & pay stubs, and he asked if I owned any big ticket items or collections or items that would be sold for a large sum of money, and about, roughly our expenses. Thats it. After the paralegal did the petition, he asked me to look at it and if all creditors were listed. I was well below median,, and they did my expense numbers at state averages really. I guess how I should be living..lol. Thats probably what this guy will be doing too. They file so many petitions and know what trustees are looking for.
The tax return is anyones guess. Maybe your lucky and your courts dont touch returns. Mine run around $50000!! EIC, two kids...I'm very concerned. What can I do though? I want to adjust withholdings but my husband doesnt. Go figure....
WAM

[B12]

Paw and Maw

Go adjust those withholdings! You should never be getting money back from income tax returns. It is an interest free loan you are giving to the government.

[PaKettle]

Some info re California southern district policies on tax refunds, etc.

As to tax refunds being grabbed by the trustee, it must depend on the District, so you should check with YOUR attorney for the practices in your district.

An attorney I met in another group told me this (This is for Southern California):
"In a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, its is rare to lose a tax refund. (in a 13, quite common, as it is considered part of "disposable income" and must be devoted to the plan, so maybe that is why others are saying the trustee took their refund). In a 7, your refund is usually exempt via the "wild card" exemption, which is around $18,000 and can be applied to any property. The wild card is found in CCP 703. Sometimes, usually if you have a house with equity, you must use CCP 704 exemptions to protect the house, then you have no "wild card" and could lose a tax refund, but no house, no problem, use the 703's."

As to Bank Statements, he told me this (again, this apparently depends on one's District: "The trustees in the Southern District here in San Diego require a bank statement which shows the amount of money in the account on the date of filing. If you are self employed, they want 6 months worth. However, this was not always the case, they used to just take the Schedule B (property) amount listed and the debtor's oath that its accurate. So its probable that your Central District attorney is right, that the trustee doesn't need it, so he doesn't need it."

And this answered my question about whether or not ALL debtors have to be listed or not. Again, this varies by the District and/or the State you file in:
"The thing to know here is this, any debt incurred prior to filing the case will be discharged by the bankruptcy, pretty much whether it is scheduled on the Schedule F or not. In other words, not listing a creditor, maybe because it was unknown, or you just forgot it, or some error with your SSN, is not grounds in and of itself to make the debt non-dischargeable.

The Code does allow creditors who aren't listed to file an objection with the Court regarding the discharge of their debt. However, creditor lawyers know that these objections are only granted if: 1. The failure to list the Debt was intentional, AND 2. The creditor missed out on a property distribution in the bankruptcy. Since you have a no asset case, clearly this isn't the case."

"If you do discover later on, say next year, that some creditor is trying to collect, i.e. its still being reported to the Credit Bureaus, then you can dispute that debt by sending the Credit Bureau a copy of your discharge. The Discharge is a blanket discharge of all your debts, it doesn't list the debts wiped out. It has a date on it, and if the debt was incurred prior to the filing, then the Bureau will go ahead and remove.

That said, we still want to list everyone and let the court give them notice, makes it nice and easy."
[Again this varies by District, so check with YOUR attorney!]

Don't worry about income and expenses, he is probably getting income from your paystubs and yes, he is just making up food and transportation, etc, using reasonable amounts that the Trustee won't have a problem with."

So the above is allegedly from a California bankruptcy attorney I met in another group, not even a bankruptcy group, I just ran into him and he was kind enough to answer some questions for me. Man, I feel a WHOLE lot better after reading the above! and also a couple other things he told me which gave me more confidence in my attorney.

DO NOT TAKE THIS AS LEGAL ADVICE, I AM ONLY A LAYMAN REPEATING SOMETHING I WAS TOLD. CHECK WITH YOUR ATTORNEY FOR POLICIES OF THE TRUSTEE IN YOUR AREA!

[emandmeagsmom]

Our lawyer exempted ours. Our usually runs around 5000 and he exempted 10,000. So I dont think they will be able to take ours