presumption of abuse

[freshstart06]

Ken, I think you will be fine, they are just being picky or you got picked for an audit (some people are just lucky like that - just kidding) In a few days check pacer, you should be fine.

[SinkingFast]

Well, our case is somewhat different. This filing is my wife alone & involves credit card debt which was strictly in her name. She lost her job some time ago & just got behind. Although the bankruptcy is in her name alone, they still have to take into consideration household income which would be my income. I have debts myself which are strictly in my name. Although I wasn't able to count my credit card debts in the means test, the end result still showed negative because we were able to count both car notes & our mortgage which again are strictly in my name.

Ken

In your case, since your wife is filing alone, your income is included at the start and then backed out later on. From that point on, your wife, her income and her debts, are the only consideration.

I'm just a little confused about something here. I'm not sure what the median allowed income is here in Texas, but I thought they also had to take into consideration disposable income after allowed dedustions. For example my means test calculation at the very end (line 48) shows a current monthly income of $4307, but then deductions have been subtracted from that of $4866 leaving a negative monthly disposable income of -$560 & a negative 60 month disposable of -$33,545. FYI: It is just myself & wife.
Our 341 meeting was yesterday, so we have no idea what will happen next related to objections, presumption of abuse decision, etc. We're worried about the latter because the US Trustee had asked for 8 months of pay stubs & bank statements prior to the meeting. Our attorney told us this usually has to do with an investigation related to "presumption of abuse." He said that our case may or may not be subject to that because my income is higher that most he handles which opens us up for scrutiny by the US Trustee. Although the BK Trustee at yesterday's 341 meeting didn't bring this up & stated at the end of the meeting he had no objections, our attorney indicated that didn't mean anything since that is a canned/scripted statement & there are (2) separate trustees. Almost seems like one trustee doesn't know what the other is doing..This worries us.

Ken

Higher income filers, higher than the norm for the Court in your area, do raise more scrutiny. Particularly with the UST's Office.

The Trustee you met at the 341 is the Standing or Panel Trustee. The Local Trustee.

The Local Trustee acts on behalf of the US Trustee's Office. The UST makes the final call.

While your case might not raise red flags to the Local Trustee, the UST's Office may ask lots of questions. As you've already seen in your wife's case. Being asked to provide additional documentation.

Or, FreshStart06 is right. Your wife drew the lucky #250 and this is just a routine Audit. Starting last fall, 1 in every 250 BK cases filed would be Audited.

Really all you can do at this point is provide the information requested and wait. Let the UST's Office examine your documentation and see where you go from there.

[hearr]

In your case, since your wife is filing alone, your income is included at the start and then backed out later on. From that point on, your wife, her income and her debts, are the only consideration.

I'm not sure what you mean by backed out at the end? I didn't see that reflected anywhere in or on her paperwork; at least not in the means test calculation section. FYI: The only income we have coming into the household is my income since she doesn't work & that is reflected all the way through to the end of the paperwork.

Ken

[lrprn]

I'm not sure what you mean by backed out at the end? I didn't see that reflected anywhere in or on her paperwork; at least not in the means test calculation section. FYI: The only income we have coming into the household is my income since she doesn't work & that is reflected all the way through to the end of the paperwork.

On form 22A used to file Ch 7 bankruptcy, your income is reflected in Part II Column B. Then in Part IV Line 17, because your wife checked Line 2C as is married but not filing jointly, your income beyond what is used for household expenses for your wife and dependents is backed out there.

Since she's unemployed, a goodly portion of your income goes to household support. However, the amount of your income used to support YOU as the non-filer should have been subtracted on Line 17.

This is one of the most muddled areas of the revised bk law passed in 2005. The courts are struggling to figure out how to consistently interpret this area of the Means Test right now.

[hearr]

confusing....

On form 22A used to file Ch 7 bankruptcy, your income is reflected in Part II Column B. Then in Part IV Line 17, because your wife checked Line 2C as is married but not filing jointly, your income beyond what is used for household expenses for your wife and dependents is backed out there.

Since she's unemployed, a goodly portion of your income goes to household support. However, the amount of your income used to support YOU as the non-filer should have been subtracted on Line 17.

I'm a little nervous now. Our attorney has no amount entered on line 17. The amount he has entered on line 16 ($4307) is also entered on line 18. Again there is nothing entered on line 17. Is this a big problem? I suppose I should point this out to him? Or is it too late since the 341 meeting was yesterday?
I will say however, line 17 is a little confusing as it states " to enter the amount of the income listed on line 11, column B that was not paid on a regular basis for the household expenses of the debtor." Can line 17 be used to include my personal debts?

Ken

[SinkingFast]

Can line 17 be used to include my personal debts?

Ken

Yep. Your CC's payments, auto loans, your half of the mortgage, etc.

Chat with your attny. Your petition, Schedules, etc, can be amended any time prior to Discharge. Once amended, the Creditors get additional time. Something like 30 days. But that's about it.

[dumbdumb]

If it is dismissed they you can file in 6 months but I think you lose the automatic stay (someone help me out) yes, it is based on your last 6 months but they know you can get overtime so I am not sure how that will work.

If I was you just keep fighting this out and see what happen, please take the time to read previous post similiar to your situation, yes, they are out there and they closed. I telling you I looked on pacer and out here in Arizona there are a lot of people over the median like $14,000 plus and discharge and close. It is possible, they want you to give up but don't at this point you have nothing to lose if you keep trying.

i just got back from seeing my lawyer... we are going to fight it. i asked him if we lost would i be in a worse position than i am today, he said no you would be in the same position. So i have nothing to lose. except the $250 extra he just charged me.

[CRRAVOSA]

If you lose your job or your income decreases considerably sometime in the future if your plan is confirmed, consider a hardship discharge or a conversion to Chapter 7.

[freshstart06]

dumbdumb, for what I have read, 90-95% of chpt 7 case are over the median. I would fight and I betcha you may just come out winning. If your lawyer wants to fight with you you may have a chance.

[JRScott]

i just got back from seeing my lawyer... we are going to fight it. i asked him if we lost would i be in a worse position than i am today, he said no you would be in the same position. So i have nothing to lose. except the $250 extra he just charged me.

Good Luck on the Fight dumbdumb. 250 bucks will be worth it to avoid a CH 13 . Keep us posted

[6ftladycop]

How Do You Find out about A Statement of Presumed Abuse?

When will we know that there is such a thing against us? How do you find out? Does a letter come in the mail or you find out at the 341 meeting?

[lrprn]

When will we know that there is such a thing against us? How do you find out? Does a letter come in the mail or you find out at the 341 meeting?

If there's a question about your case, you might be asked about questionable areas during your 341. If the answers aren't satisfactory, then your trustee will post a Presumption of Abuse objection to PACER after your 341. If you file with a lawyer, then he/she is often able to head a lot of this off at the pass if there truly is no fraud intended. If you file pro se, then you get to deal with the objections yourself.

To keep things in perspective, there are very few objections for Presumption of Abuse filed in Ch 7 cases. Unless you are very close to the median, have something unusual about your case that catches the trustee's eye, or really are trying to hide something, you have almost zero to worry about here.

[dumbdumb]

When will we know that there is such a thing against us? How do you find out? Does a letter come in the mail or you find out at the 341 meeting?

i checked the pacer.. but i also recieved a letter in the mail shortly after ..