Realist expenses for a family of 6

[freshstart06]

It cost a lot to run a family of six but I want to make sure my expenses are realistic.

Childcare part time: $250 - I have four kids, the two older ones attend camp and afterschool programs, the childcare is really higher but if I state that it will make my dispoable income even more negative.

Gas for two cars, one is a van both cars are 1997 - $200 this includes my husband 45 minute drive back and forth to work, driving kids around, grocery shopping, doctors appt., times my husband comes home from work

Clothing expense - $300 a month which is $50 dollars per person

food - $1200 this includes husbands lunch and the kids lunch program at school

entertainment- $200 this is mild, because my girls are in dance and what can I say, I have kids.

By the way, where does dance classes for my girls fit into the expenses??? Some people may not feel it is necessary but keeping kids busy keeps them out of trouble. They are also in other sports which cost money.

My medical expense plus the family easily can run up to $500 a month this includes all my diabetic supplies, co-pays, otc meds, my daughters asthma meds, etc.

This is just the expense I have quesions on, I figured out the rest.


Do you think this is too low or too high??? my expense plus some equals this and I have proof but I don't want trustees to question if they think it is too high.

[AreSoonParted]

RE: Realist expenses for a family of 6

Are you filing Chapter 7 ?? If so do you have a lawyer? They will help you will determine what expenses are "acceptable" in your area. I have 5 kids, a couple are on special diets so my normal food bill was higher than what would be acceptable to a trustee without producing a lot of paperwork. We put down the acceptable number for food. However, our auto ownership cost was less than "normal" so we re-couped it there. That's pretty much how it works.

There's probably no space for dance lessons, little league, etc... but a decent lawyer will help get the numbers to line-up with how the trustee likes them, and hopefully you'll have something in there for the kids.

What I've found is that after filing (I did a Ch 7) the budget sort of works itself out. There are no CC or personal loan bills (a good thing), but on the other hand the pot of money won't get bigger if spend it too fast.

you really have to prioritize things. What has worked for us is that we really monitor the cashflow.

If we can save even $10 here and there, or burn thru money at a slower than expected pace, after a few weeks we can afford music lessons, a meal out, or new inner-tubes for a few bikes, etc....It is a different way of life.

I realize this is not much help... Good Luck, and if you haven't already find a good lawyer who can explain things much better than I.

[freshstart06]

Thank you, it looks like my figures are close to what my state allows, as a matter of fact I am under in some cases. I do not have an attonery because I can't afford one. Just can't wait until this is over. I have to wait until the end of August until my trustee meeting.

I am currently in a new home that is much cheaper and bigger. So I feel better there.

[SinkingFast]

Our allowable for food for a family of 6 (which we are) here is $1300/mo. One attny was gonna file us at $600/mo. One attny would bump that up to $700/mo because we do have special diets. Renal failure, high blood pressure, and watching fats. Our attny filed us at $850/mo.

Our attny listed School and Work Lunches under "Other" at the bottom of Schedule J and itemized those items on a separate sheet.

Entertainment here is maxed at $100/mo. Smaller families get less than that even, but we got $100/mo for Entertainment. Our attny considers renting DVD's, going out to dinner, the movies, etc as Entertainment.

You might list the cost for dance classes under "Other" at the bottom of J and itemize it out. That's where our attny put school activities fees and related sports expenses, hair care, pet care expenses and such. And, like you, we didn't claim everything either.

On the Medicals,......... $500 is high so be able to explain it and prove it. Be sure you've got receipts or get print-outs from the drug store, doctor's office, any where you get supplies or treatment.

Line 8, Transportation not including car payments,........... That's for gasoline, maintenance, repairs, and auto insurance. With the price of gasoline much higher than when we filed, and older cars that probably need more repairs, you might be able to bump that $200/mo up to $250 to $300/mo.

Look back thru your bank statements, CC receipts. See what you've spent on repairs, tires, oil changes and such over the last year. Get out your auto insurance bills, add up the premiums, divide by how ever many months, and figure that into your Transportation costs as well. You'll probably pick up some of your "lost" food dollars there.

You might wanna take a look at several cases on PACER and see what attnys are filing for other clients in your area. The Allowables are not necessarily the accepted numbers in any given Court.

[freshstart06]

Wow sinkingfast, thanks that is very good info. I kind of have a special diet due to diabetes but I don't really eat that much. My pump supplies alone cost a lot, then the required eye appts. changes in eye glasses due to my detached retina, my insulin, needles, doctors appt for everyone including dental, this adds up but I will put it down to $400. I have to pay 20% copay. I know I sound very sick but really it isn't that bad, no kidney damage or major diabetic problems just problems that I think are caused by stress.

Thanks so much, I have to submit my schedules so I wanted to make sure I don't cause no red flags. I am not sure if anyone agress but this expense budget is a great help, it really shows where you money is going and where you can make some changes. I am going to keep this even after BK. I have a lot of healing to do so we have to tighten our belts for a long while.

[BKTango]

Whatever you do, do not list any after school, dance classes or anything in that nature, you better find another category to shuffle that expense into. Specifying that you are spending X amount of dollars on after school activies and programs, and dance lassons will throw a big monkey wrench at the trustee's head. Some courts and districts are different so maybe you will have an easy one, but most pretty much do not allow for non-necessary expenses and birthday, Christmas, pets, and kids extra activities do not fit into a necessary expense. So, do not list them on your schedule as exactly what they are, follow the advice given and list it in "other" or cushion the other expenses a little.

I hate to be blunt here, but if you are paying for dance lessons, little league, and other activities you really need to prioritize your families budget. The money that could have helped pay for an attorney is in those expenses, and while it's unfortunate, some kids have to do without for a short time. My child had to learn that, and after his "suffering" of doing without for a little bit of time he came out the other side of the bk unscathed.

[freshstart06]

My kids were in these activities for years. I have not been planning chapter 7 for years. Things just really started getting unbearable after my husbands garnishments, summons (for something we could really fight and win) and yet another health problem on my end that prevents me from working then on top of that the mortgage business going down so I can not make much money if I wanted to, then the topper the all the money owed to the IRS.

Dance class for my daughters is only $98 a month total. After school activities ie tutors, sports, etc are necessary and maybe total up to $100 a month this is nothing compared to what an attorney will charge which is a lump sum of over $1500 I don't have that and my chapter 7 was a rush case. I have no assets, so I can go pro se.

Tango, I could see if my daughter's dance classe was $1500 a month but is isn't. I am not sure if you have Kids but they have expenses.

We are not in BK because of excessive CC or not able to manage our bills however, our rent was way too much at first. We are here because of expected illness ie my detached retina that had me out for almost two years, then my two broken feet. then student loans garnishment that my husband had well before our marriage, then the Irs problems (which is another $500 amonth out of my husband's check) due to trying to make us have somekind of check now but you pay in the end. $100 a month is nothing compared to $2000 upfront to a lawyer when I really don't need him.

No offense Tango and I know you are trying to help but you are looking into my situation a little too deep. When I heal and the BK is over we can work on getting our life back together, I am not going to lie there were some lessons we learned and some mistakes. We are not innocent but unless you have kids taking care of them is an expense which is outside of just housing and food. By the way, my state does allow birthdays, gifts, and entertainment. However, I will take your advice and not include it as dance, I can even leave it out because it does not make a difference.

[Granny]

I agree, don't list the dance lessons and kids activities. If you are truly spending more on childcare, then list that instead of reporting those other expenses, which will more than likely be thrown out. If you have the receipts for childcare and can justify it, they are less likely to be disputed.

[nosrus77]

I have four kids, two are in shcool, and our child care costs were an actual $659 per month, more than our mortgage or car payments. OUCH. So - I'd pump up your child care costs quite a bit. We even live in a cheap area, Southern Indiana. Good luck - hope it all works out!

[freshstart06]

Thanks Granny, I will leave it out, it will make us look less negative. Right now is just a bad time for us but I know this time next year this will all be a memory. My kids are not even in dance during the summer months.

[freshstart06]

By the way, as you see, I was going to put the dance in entertainment

[BKTango]

I am indeed trying to help you by giving you some advice as others are doing. I was simply stating that sometimes we all have to tighten our belts and do without to do what's best for the family, and if you are still unsure about alot of the process and in need of help, there is expenses that could be cut and help pay for an attorney to provde that help. You clearly stated you could not afford an attorney, I was mearly pointing out that if you looked closely and you really felt you needed an attorney the money is there.

I do have a child, as I stated in my post. And we too were not in bk do to alot of cc debt it was mainly unexpected medical expenses that sent us into bk. I can honestly say I was only saying what everyone else was saying, don't include that expense outright on your schedules, because a trustee seeing you spend almost $200 a month on dance, sports, etc. may look at that as non-necessity. Basically you are getting a heads up to move that into another category.

However, I apologize if you feel I am looking into your situation too closely. I was only trying to give advice on what might look better and not cause any flags with the trustee. Again I apologize and I will no longer, look too deeply into your situation as you put it. Good luck to you and your family.

[freshstart06]

BKtango, I am sorry too, I am just nervous and go into defense mode. As you see I am still up all night, I was on the computer at 5 am. Sometimes I feel better sometimes I don't. I just want this over and fast. I have almost two months until my trustee meeting (city of Phoenix is back up) I feel trapped because I can't do nothing, I wish I had a magic wand or something, cast a spell LOL to make this all better and go away. I am sick to my stomach and can't hold down any food.

I see the blessing in some of this ie, a new huge home for less. I am just so mad we have to go through this. I just don't want my kids to suffer during the process nor do I want them to worry because they can tell something is wrong because mommy and daddy are having another "private" meeting and they can't listen.

Do worry, I will not nor was I going to make a section for the dance it was going in to the entertainment.

[lrprn]

I going to make a section for the dance it was going in to the entertainment.

Most trustees allow around $50/month for entertainment, so putting dance lessons here isn't going to work. The trustee is likely to challenge it. You need to distribute that money into other categories.

And as hard as it was to hear, BKTango did you a huge favor. You appear to be trying to maintain a lifestyle that may not be realistic given how much money your family has coming in now. You've told us your husband is going to make more money, but until he does, are you truly living within what you two make? After filing, have you two made it a priority to set aside enough every month to handle another medical or other family emergency without going down the drain financially again? If you can't answer yes, then filing bankruptcy isn't likely to fix your financial problems for very long.

I understand that you won't want to hear me either, but here in the forum, we tell our bk friends when we think they are headed down a risky financial path because we care. And we do care about you, freshstart!

[freshstart06]

No I appreciate everything you guys are saying. You guys are not trying to hurt me and sometimes the truth hurts and we have to face it no matter what. We do have to find a way to save so if anything every happens again, and God forbid, my husband gets ill we have to have some kind of savings.

Once this phase of my life is over I never want to visit this phase again. I know my situation isn't as bad as other but this is so hard to handle at times even with the chapter 7 pending it gets hard.

I have tough skin and I am reasonable so it is okay to say whatever you need to say to me. Even if I don't like and may get into defense mode, I do accept the truth and I am not afraid to say sorry if I am wrong. sometimes we need this, this is all a learning lesson. You guys have been where I am today so you understand my fears, I am just happy you guys stuck around after your cases got discharged.